Comments on: Taking the Dungeon Out of Dungeons and Dragons

By: JEB

JEB — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 08:04:12 +0000

Ahhh! Nostalgia!! Bard’s Tale and Dungeon crawls. I remember me and a couple of friends playing Bard’s Tale on the C64 on hot summer days until the floppy literary melted from the heat … I kid you not!!

@Mike I believe you have really hit upon how to use Skill challenges in a crawl … I recently played a modified Gangs of Wheloon game with my PC’s and for the first time I felt that skill challenges really worked … and the recipe was quite like the one you describe.
For the first time I felt that the Skil challenge engaged the players to come up with alternate skills to use instead of just rolling a dice and the rest calling out to aid the player …

For the first time DM’ing 4th ed I believe that Skill challenges really can work … I have felt that it has potential but haven’t been able to put it to good use until now …

So my advice to other DM’s who struggle is: don’t give up … keep on reading these great articles and find a way to make skill challenges interesting!

It is often more rewarding than “just another” combat encounter …

By: Mike Karkabe-Olson

Mike Karkabe-Olson — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:01:27 +0000

Here’s another technique I use to great effect that you may want to explore: using skill challenges in place of the old-school techniques of random encounter rolls used with random encounter tables. If they fail the challenge, they have a “random” encounter at some point along their travels that results from their failed checks. If they succeed, they avoid any “random” encounters along those same travels. A succession of such skill challenges can also be used to represent the possibility of numerous random encounters.

For instance, when a group of PCs spend X amount of time in a dungeon or environment, or they move through specific trigger points I’ve determined, or they travel a specific distance or are faced with a specific decision on where to go next (i.e. a fork in the road), I require them to make a skill check roll that may or may not influence their decision or decisions (a success gives them some useful information to act upon, a failure gives them useless or wrong information to act upon, or even harmful information, but I leave it up to them on how they wish to act to all this information/disinformation). Sometimes, these are specific checks that I require for that instance; other times, it is whatever skill they choose to use, as long as they can make a sensible case for using it (i.e. they might choose to make a perception check to see which passage has more tracks leading in and out of it, or a dungeoneering check to determine which path will likely provide the path of least resistance).

If they succeed in the skill challenge overall, the overall information I give them (no matter how they choose to act upon it) basically results in them taking the path of least resistance toward their goal (no “random encounter”). Perhaps they even see some evidence of how their wonderful decisions have helped them out (i.e. navigating into a side passage that overlooks the other tunnel you might have chosen, you now see a massive troop of 20 goblins tramping up the other passage toward where you had been before. Luckily, though, it looks like you have avoided this encounter as long as you remain still for a bit). You can even include a few narratives of the bad decisions (failed rolls) they made, like “in this passage you see a lot of goblin refuse, which leads you to believe your last decision to turn down this tunnel may be the wrong one and has lead you closer to their habitation.”

If they fail the skill challenge overall, though, the information conversely results in them making a major screw up (having a “random encounter”). I then take the opportunity to incorporate their bad decisions into a narrated outcome: i.e. the tunnel now appears to be heading deeper into a warmer area (if they failed a failed dungeoneering check), possibly a hotbed for goblins, and now you are wondering if you made a wrong turn. And, as they stealthily try to find a different route (if they also failed a perception check as part of that same challenge), “you are surprised by an attack while heading into the next tunnel” (give the goblins a surprise round). If they also failed a history check on some strange glyphs results in them getting a wrong translation as to what clan the goblins belong to, you might mention now that the insignia the goblins are wearing are actually from a known hostile clan mentioned in the glyphs and that you had thought the glyphs said that clan was an ancient one, and long ago destroyed–that now appears to have been wrong.

By: The Evolution of the Dungeon Encounter — Dungeon's Master

The Evolution of the Dungeon Encounter — Dungeon's Master — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:32:09 +0000

[...] Sound familiar? Ok, maybe I’ve gone a bit too far with some stereotypes, but how many DMs have designed a dungeon that had a room with a few monster that just waited for the door to open? Guilty as charged. Now, it’s been a long time since I’ve done something like that in a dungeon and there are a few reasons for it. Mainly it’s becasue dungeons are changing. In 4e there just aren’t enough rooms in the dungeons to support a room with two orcs and a chest. In fact you could argue that dungeons as they once existed are no longer present in the current edition of D&D. For more on this read our article on Taking the Dungeon Out of D&D. [...]

By: Will

Will — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:24:33 +0000

I really like the ideas here. I'm not really a 4E player, but I think the principle can be applied to just about any game. I think it would also makes things more interesting for DMs like me who have difficulty creating cartographically interesting dungeons. Thanks for an insightful article. .-= Will´s last blog ..Upcoming (Not Dead Yet!) =-.

By: Wimwick

Wimwick — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:10:15 +0000

@ Jared Spurbeck
I’m a big fan of changes that Keith Baker brought to D&D in terms of making encounters more exciting and meaningful.

@ Elizabeth Barrette
I think you cut to the heart of the matter, do what is fun for you and your group. If crawling through a dungeon 5′ at a time works, then do it. If not change things up and do something that does work!

@ Mike
Bang on, that’s exactly what I’m getting at. We can dispense with physical maps and instead rely on PCs to be PCs. Creative DMs can then take these actions and create an on the fly skill challenge that rewards the PCs for moving from encounter to encounter. For DMs that want to be more elaborate they can flush out full skill challenges to cover these actions.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:27:48 +0000

After reading many of the sample skill challenges, I’ve been wondering if a skill challenge or challenges could be imbedded into the adventure rather than always treated as a distinct group of actions. I think your article says “yes” to this ideal.

Why couldn’t the challenges be built into the dungeon setting.

Ex. ” The cleric’s uncanny observational skills found the secret door (perception-success), but the lock proved beyond the thief’s skill (thievery-failure).
That left it up to Thunk the barbarian. With a roar, he crashed through the door (Athletics-.success). And so on.

The dungeon is there but a planned out set of challenges defines the action. Success or failure helps direct the PC’s

Perhaps the barbarian’s crashing through the door was the last Success needed in a skill challenge leading to the Hidden Tomb they went into the stinky old dungeon for to begin with.

By: Elizabeth Barrette

Elizabeth Barrette — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:43:32 +0000

I’d say fast-forward past the parts that you and your players aren’t interested in. If you’re doing a dungeon at all, it’s probably because you LIKE dungeons. A fast-forward might be useful occasionally (“There are HOW many hundred flights of stairs?!”) but most of the time you’d want to enjoy the journey. Also, condensing the dungeon would undercut worldbuilding, because you’d lose a lot of the detail and navigation process. If you don’t care about worldbuilding, that’s no loss; but a lot of people consider it a key reason for playing.

Know what you like and what you don’t. Condense what your gang considers dull to get to the good stuff. Don’t skimp on the good stuff.
.-= Elizabeth Barrette´s last blog ..Weekend Meet-n-Greet 9-19-09 =-.

By: Skill Challenge: The Dungeon Crawl — Dungeon's Master

Skill Challenge: The Dungeon Crawl — Dungeon's Master — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:34:52 +0000

[...] in a combat encounter than randomly placed within a dungeon corridor. Recently I wrote about how 4e Takes the Dungeon out of Dungeons & Dragons. The aim of this skill challenge is to provide a set of mechanics to handle moving from room to [...]

By: Month in Review: April 2009 — Dungeon's Master

Month in Review: April 2009 — Dungeon's Master — Fri, 01 May 2009 13:13:25 +0000

[...] We made the controversial suggestion of Taking the Dungeon Out of Dungeons & Dragons. [...]

By: Jared Spurbeck

Jared Spurbeck — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:59:38 +0000

I think Keith Baker covered his take on dungeons pretty well in this Eberron article! His advice boiled down to "Skip the slow parts," "Have fewer encounters and make them more interesting," and "Have the parts outside of the dungeon be just as interesting." I think Eberron should've been the default setting of 4th Edition. ^.^;