Comments on: You’re a Striker, He’s a Defender… Big Deal: Looking at Roles http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/ A Dungeons & Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters & Players Wed, 23 May 2012 15:03:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Month in Review: May 2009 — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-10153 Month in Review: May 2009 — Dungeon's Master Fri, 29 Jan 2010 01:11:34 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-10153 [...] There was a flurry of articles around the blogs regarding character roles in D&D. We began by looking at the possibilities of Redefining Character Roles. We then looked at what is required in order to create The Fighter as a Striker. And, finally, we explored the common traits shared by each role in You’re a Striker, He’s a Defender… Big Deal: Looking at Roles. [...] [...] There was a flurry of articles around the blogs regarding character roles in D&D. We began by looking at the possibilities of Redefining Character Roles. We then looked at what is required in order to create The Fighter as a Striker. And, finally, we explored the common traits shared by each role in You’re a Striker, He’s a Defender… Big Deal: Looking at Roles. [...]

]]> By: Ellery http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1048 Ellery Sat, 16 May 2009 20:59:25 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1048 This has been a fascinating series and i am looking forward to reading the rest of it! Part of the reason I am enjoying it is because it seems your reaction to roles is exactly opposite mine. But most of the players in my game seem to agree with you. To me it seems like Wizard's put forward roles as a very loose guideline so someone new to the game or class would get an idea about how a certain class would play. Within each role there are a few similar themes, but much variation. And that's all. They don't seem to be confining themselves to a straight jacket when designing new classes for a certain role. A few of my players on the other hand really get upset when another class seems to impinge on their role (e.g the swordmage is very angry that avengers have easier access to AC), and so on. Anyway, just my rambling thoughts. Keep writing and I will keep reading! This has been a fascinating series and i am looking forward to reading the rest of it! Part of the reason I am enjoying it is because it seems your reaction to roles is exactly opposite mine. But most of the players in my game seem to agree with you.

To me it seems like Wizard’s put forward roles as a very loose guideline so someone new to the game or class would get an idea about how a certain class would play. Within each role there are a few similar themes, but much variation. And that’s all. They don’t seem to be confining themselves to a straight jacket when designing new classes for a certain role.

A few of my players on the other hand really get upset when another class seems to impinge on their role (e.g the swordmage is very angry that avengers have easier access to AC), and so on.

Anyway, just my rambling thoughts. Keep writing and I will keep reading!

]]> By: Wimwick http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1046 Wimwick Sat, 16 May 2009 17:02:50 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1046 @ Bartoneus We have a few things planned and over the course of the next few weeks we'll provide various different versions on how we think it could be handled. Of course we love feedback and we'll be looking to see what others in the community are thinking about this idea. @ Bartoneus
We have a few things planned and over the course of the next few weeks we’ll provide various different versions on how we think it could be handled. Of course we love feedback and we’ll be looking to see what others in the community are thinking about this idea.

]]> By: Bartoneus http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1044 Bartoneus Fri, 15 May 2009 22:37:02 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1044 @Wimwick: Well, you've hit it on the head I think. Classes are a large part simply flavor, and your last statement was that power sources are flavor also. So what do people choose when they make a new character? Primarily, they should be choosing based on Role, and then Class. Power Source I don't believe is a very big factor to many people, they don't want to play a "psionic character" they rather want to play a 'psion' or a monk and it happens to be psionic. So in an essence, what you're proposing in these posts already happens, the primary choice being made is class role (whether the player knows it or not). What you could really have fun exploring is a reverse system, where you really do just pick role first, and then slap some class and power source flavor onto that. This may be what you have planned already, if so I'm eager to see how it turns out. This post is just a tease! :P <abbr><em>Bartoneus’s last blog post..<a href="http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/05/14/fascinating-captain/" rel="nofollow">Fascinating, Captain</a></abbr></em> @Wimwick: Well, you’ve hit it on the head I think. Classes are a large part simply flavor, and your last statement was that power sources are flavor also. So what do people choose when they make a new character? Primarily, they should be choosing based on Role, and then Class. Power Source I don’t believe is a very big factor to many people, they don’t want to play a “psionic character” they rather want to play a ‘psion’ or a monk and it happens to be psionic.

So in an essence, what you’re proposing in these posts already happens, the primary choice being made is class role (whether the player knows it or not). What you could really have fun exploring is a reverse system, where you really do just pick role first, and then slap some class and power source flavor onto that. This may be what you have planned already, if so I’m eager to see how it turns out. This post is just a tease! :P

Bartoneus’s last blog post..Fascinating, Captain

]]> By: Wimwick http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1042 Wimwick Fri, 15 May 2009 17:30:16 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1042 @ Kameron Ameron and I are approaching this topic from opposite directions. So look for a number of options from us regarding this topic. I think that classes are now just flavour, the real decisions being made during character creation are role and power source. Though I find power sources to be a very artificial mechanic and not much more than flavour either. @ Kameron
Ameron and I are approaching this topic from opposite directions. So look for a number of options from us regarding this topic. I think that classes are now just flavour, the real decisions being made during character creation are role and power source. Though I find power sources to be a very artificial mechanic and not much more than flavour either.

]]> By: Wimwick http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1040 Wimwick Fri, 15 May 2009 15:49:53 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1040 @ Bartoneus You could argue that roles are the new character classes. The use of multi-classing is one way around the restrictions of the role system. For example in our main game Ameron plays a Paladin multi-classed with Cleric. We'll certainly be looking at multi-classing and how it fits into this discussion in future articles. @ Icosahedrophilia Agreed. Roles as they stand provide a definition for what the character was designed to do. Perhaps it makes character creation friendlier to new players. My question is can roles be more than this? Can we make roles more than a label? What would that mean for the game and what type of houserules would be required to make it work? These are the questions that Ameron and I want to look at over the coming weeks as we think further about roles. @ Bartoneus
You could argue that roles are the new character classes. The use of multi-classing is one way around the restrictions of the role system. For example in our main game Ameron plays a Paladin multi-classed with Cleric. We’ll certainly be looking at multi-classing and how it fits into this discussion in future articles.

@ Icosahedrophilia
Agreed. Roles as they stand provide a definition for what the character was designed to do. Perhaps it makes character creation friendlier to new players. My question is can roles be more than this? Can we make roles more than a label? What would that mean for the game and what type of houserules would be required to make it work? These are the questions that Ameron and I want to look at over the coming weeks as we think further about roles.

]]> By: Kameron http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1039 Kameron Fri, 15 May 2009 15:46:04 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1039 Ha, I've got a similar article in the works that pulls out defining class features in preparation for creating role-based builds for each class. I've been meaning to email you and a few other RPG Bloggers who have recently posted on customizing classes to fit multiple roles about collaborating on a project where we each take a class and design it out to 3rd level for each of the four roles. I do have to agree with Bartoneus that I think this design direction would be better served by just eliminating classes and pairing roles and power sources. I'm interested to explore this variation as well. <abbr><em>Kameron’s last blog post..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/pathsofadventure/~3/dDac29F-hvU/" rel="nofollow">Designing a RPG Player’s Handbook</a></abbr></em> Ha, I’ve got a similar article in the works that pulls out defining class features in preparation for creating role-based builds for each class. I’ve been meaning to email you and a few other RPG Bloggers who have recently posted on customizing classes to fit multiple roles about collaborating on a project where we each take a class and design it out to 3rd level for each of the four roles.

I do have to agree with Bartoneus that I think this design direction would be better served by just eliminating classes and pairing roles and power sources. I’m interested to explore this variation as well.

Kameron’s last blog post..Designing a RPG Player’s Handbook

]]> By: Icosahedrophilia http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1038 Icosahedrophilia Fri, 15 May 2009 15:08:14 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1038 It's always helpful to remember that "role" isn't an actual character mechanic, but an explicit marker of design decisions that otherwise might remain "behind the curtain." There are no feats, for example, that have "role X" as a prerequisite. Instead, the role labels tell you, the player, what the designers had in mind when they put the class together, assigned its powers, and so on. This helps you make decisions about optimizing your choices. Want to do a lot of damage? Play a striker. Want to be the front-line meatwall combatant? Play a defender. Want to heal and buff the party? Play a leader. Want to affect multiple targets with a single attack? Play a controller. The role labels are nothing more, and nothing less, than a way of grouping classes together to tell players what those classes were designed to be good at. It’s always helpful to remember that “role” isn’t an actual character mechanic, but an explicit marker of design decisions that otherwise might remain “behind the curtain.” There are no feats, for example, that have “role X” as a prerequisite. Instead, the role labels tell you, the player, what the designers had in mind when they put the class together, assigned its powers, and so on. This helps you make decisions about optimizing your choices. Want to do a lot of damage? Play a striker. Want to be the front-line meatwall combatant? Play a defender. Want to heal and buff the party? Play a leader. Want to affect multiple targets with a single attack? Play a controller. The role labels are nothing more, and nothing less, than a way of grouping classes together to tell players what those classes were designed to be good at.

]]> By: Bartoneus http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/05/looking-at-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 Bartoneus Fri, 15 May 2009 14:29:20 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=1410#comment-1037 The role feature of Controllers is access to more area/burst/blast powers, but that is a bit of a deviation from the other roles as you note. It sounds like all of what you're talking about can be easily accomplished within the 4E rules as written through multi-classing, or more than that with the preview of hybrid classes. If you want to play a burly rogue, then multi-class into fighter. If you want a really tough rogue, make a fighter then multi-class into rogue. By changing the roles system as you're hinting at, you might as well eliminate the class system entirely and just use roles. <abbr><em>Bartoneus’s last blog post..<a href="http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/05/14/fascinating-captain/" rel="nofollow">Fascinating, Captain</a></abbr></em> The role feature of Controllers is access to more area/burst/blast powers, but that is a bit of a deviation from the other roles as you note.

It sounds like all of what you’re talking about can be easily accomplished within the 4E rules as written through multi-classing, or more than that with the preview of hybrid classes. If you want to play a burly rogue, then multi-class into fighter. If you want a really tough rogue, make a fighter then multi-class into rogue. By changing the roles system as you’re hinting at, you might as well eliminate the class system entirely and just use roles.

Bartoneus’s last blog post..Fascinating, Captain

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