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	<title>Comments on: An Accidental Solution to the Slow Combat Problem</title>
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	<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/</link>
	<description>A Dungeons &#38; Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters &#38; Players</description>
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		<title>By: Month in Review: September 2009 — Dungeon&#39;s Master</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-7509</link>
		<dc:creator>Month in Review: September 2009 — Dungeon&#39;s Master</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-7509</guid>
		<description>[...] An Accidental Solution to the Slow Combat Problem - Cooperation and familiarity are apparently the keys to speeding up combat. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An Accidental Solution to the Slow Combat Problem - Cooperation and familiarity are apparently the keys to speeding up combat. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4942</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4942</guid>
		<description>@Dave
I like your 3 points and encourage more gaming groups to take this approach. We often use #1 and have people delay if they&#039;re not ready.

We recently played a level 30 dungeon delve and we were able to complete each combat encounter in about an hour mainly because we were familiar with our characters from running them through lower level delves. Had we played these PCs from level 1 I think the combat would have been even faster. Familiarity is the key.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dave<br />
I like your 3 points and encourage more gaming groups to take this approach. We often use #1 and have people delay if they&#8217;re not ready.</p>
<p>We recently played a level 30 dungeon delve and we were able to complete each combat encounter in about an hour mainly because we were familiar with our characters from running them through lower level delves. Had we played these PCs from level 1 I think the combat would have been even faster. Familiarity is the key.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4578</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4578</guid>
		<description>Anarkeith is a player in my game so I make the following claims realizing that he already posted. :)

IMO D&amp;D 4e is an extremely fast game. However, it requires as the author reported that the people be familiar with their characters and the system.

in our game we have the following rules to help move things along in a friendly way.
1. If a player is not ready to take their actions we simply remove them form the initiative order and proceed with the next player / monster. After that next action if the player is now ready they can get back in the initiative order. This is a nice way to help people get ready without delaying the game and doesn&#039;t penalize them to much.
2. Only in character short suggestions. No coaching and managing of other players. Let their decision stand and let your characters reaction be the only reaction.
3. When we first started and had new players and characters we actually spent time doing practice runs. 

I have found that the players spend a lot of time discussing things and our goal is to continue to stop this behavior and let the game just play out. 

Also, our combats tend to last longer than the 45 minutes. This is mostly because the campaign is a dangerous one and I&#039;ve set most of the encounters at the hard level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anarkeith is a player in my game so I make the following claims realizing that he already posted. <img src='http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>IMO D&amp;D 4e is an extremely fast game. However, it requires as the author reported that the people be familiar with their characters and the system.</p>
<p>in our game we have the following rules to help move things along in a friendly way.<br />
1. If a player is not ready to take their actions we simply remove them form the initiative order and proceed with the next player / monster. After that next action if the player is now ready they can get back in the initiative order. This is a nice way to help people get ready without delaying the game and doesn&#8217;t penalize them to much.<br />
2. Only in character short suggestions. No coaching and managing of other players. Let their decision stand and let your characters reaction be the only reaction.<br />
3. When we first started and had new players and characters we actually spent time doing practice runs. </p>
<p>I have found that the players spend a lot of time discussing things and our goal is to continue to stop this behavior and let the game just play out. </p>
<p>Also, our combats tend to last longer than the 45 minutes. This is mostly because the campaign is a dangerous one and I&#8217;ve set most of the encounters at the hard level.</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4189</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4189</guid>
		<description>@Tclynch
I agree. Personally I never really found 4e combat as slow as the blog-sphere makes it sound. Maybe my group is just an anomaly.

@Wyatt
I&#039;m not interested in having combat over in one round, I&#039;m much more interested in a long battle with good tactics and unexpected twists and turns. But if each round takes 10-15 minutes then this just isn&#039;t practical. As long as each round can be completed quickly I&#039;m all for longer combat.

Your adjustments to monster stats sound interesting. I may have to try this kind of adjustment and see how it works for my game.

@Anarkeith
I agree that experience with 4e will speed things up in the long run. I hadn&#039;t considered the &quot;spotlight&quot; factor. It’s an interesting observation and remarkably accurate.

@jonathan
Welcome back, it&#039;s been a while since we&#039;ve heard from you. I like your suggestion to have basic and advanced versions of the game. I&#039;m actually surprised Wizards hasn&#039;t thought of it. After all they could sell even more books that way. But in all seriousness I agree with your rationale for slow play. D&amp;D 4e requires commitment and I don&#039;t think all players are willing (or able) to put in the time and effort required to make their gaming experience great. Thanks.

@Mike
My group uses laptops at the gaming table (we don&#039;t use minis, we use MapTool from RPTools.net) and the internet often causes distractions. A guy’s turn comes up and he has no idea what&#039;s happened since his last turn. We have to waste time bringing him up to speed when he should already know. But when everyone&#039;s focused things run smoothly. We’re a pretty experienced group so the learning curve wasn&#039;t that steep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tclynch<br />
I agree. Personally I never really found 4e combat as slow as the blog-sphere makes it sound. Maybe my group is just an anomaly.</p>
<p>@Wyatt<br />
I&#8217;m not interested in having combat over in one round, I&#8217;m much more interested in a long battle with good tactics and unexpected twists and turns. But if each round takes 10-15 minutes then this just isn&#8217;t practical. As long as each round can be completed quickly I&#8217;m all for longer combat.</p>
<p>Your adjustments to monster stats sound interesting. I may have to try this kind of adjustment and see how it works for my game.</p>
<p>@Anarkeith<br />
I agree that experience with 4e will speed things up in the long run. I hadn&#8217;t considered the &#8220;spotlight&#8221; factor. It’s an interesting observation and remarkably accurate.</p>
<p>@jonathan<br />
Welcome back, it&#8217;s been a while since we&#8217;ve heard from you. I like your suggestion to have basic and advanced versions of the game. I&#8217;m actually surprised Wizards hasn&#8217;t thought of it. After all they could sell even more books that way. But in all seriousness I agree with your rationale for slow play. D&#038;D 4e requires commitment and I don&#8217;t think all players are willing (or able) to put in the time and effort required to make their gaming experience great. Thanks.</p>
<p>@Mike<br />
My group uses laptops at the gaming table (we don&#8217;t use minis, we use MapTool from RPTools.net) and the internet often causes distractions. A guy’s turn comes up and he has no idea what&#8217;s happened since his last turn. We have to waste time bringing him up to speed when he should already know. But when everyone&#8217;s focused things run smoothly. We’re a pretty experienced group so the learning curve wasn&#8217;t that steep.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4169</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4169</guid>
		<description>Our combat has definitely sped up in recent weeks (about 6-7 months into the campaign). I have a few players that only have limited experience with Pencil and Paper RPGs and a few that are 3e (and earlier and other systems) vets...

It took everyone a while to catch on, but most of them got it and fight are coming together a lot faster. I have one player who spends too much of his not turn time txting and isn&#039;t prepared when his turn rolls around, but other than that, it&#039;s smooth sailing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our combat has definitely sped up in recent weeks (about 6-7 months into the campaign). I have a few players that only have limited experience with Pencil and Paper RPGs and a few that are 3e (and earlier and other systems) vets&#8230;</p>
<p>It took everyone a while to catch on, but most of them got it and fight are coming together a lot faster. I have one player who spends too much of his not turn time txting and isn&#8217;t prepared when his turn rolls around, but other than that, it&#8217;s smooth sailing.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathan</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4168</link>
		<dc:creator>jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4168</guid>
		<description>IMHO -- the issue with slow combat in 4E is related to situations where casual gamers play once a week or so and don&#039;t have time in their schedules to study the PHB. Each week, you gather, socialize, and over a period of months learn the game. Sure, combat eventually picks up speed for casual gamers - but in my experience it doesn&#039;t happen for weeks - sometime months depending on the player. Its this reason why 4E should have a rules light version -- kinda like BASIC was -- to introduce people to the game. Take someone who has never played any RPG before and drop them into a 4E game and you&#039;ll find out what I mean. With character sheets that are 4 or 5 pages long, it&#039;s not a game for casual gamers in my opinion (this is something I&#039;ve recently come to understand; which is why we are switch to savage worlds (1 page character sheets) for a while while I introduce roleplaying games (in general) to some new players).
.-= jonathan&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/NevermetPress/~3/hDeElRViO24/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Encounter: Rooftop Rumble&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO &#8212; the issue with slow combat in 4E is related to situations where casual gamers play once a week or so and don&#8217;t have time in their schedules to study the PHB. Each week, you gather, socialize, and over a period of months learn the game. Sure, combat eventually picks up speed for casual gamers &#8211; but in my experience it doesn&#8217;t happen for weeks &#8211; sometime months depending on the player. Its this reason why 4E should have a rules light version &#8212; kinda like BASIC was &#8212; to introduce people to the game. Take someone who has never played any RPG before and drop them into a 4E game and you&#8217;ll find out what I mean. With character sheets that are 4 or 5 pages long, it&#8217;s not a game for casual gamers in my opinion (this is something I&#8217;ve recently come to understand; which is why we are switch to savage worlds (1 page character sheets) for a while while I introduce roleplaying games (in general) to some new players).<br />
.-= jonathan&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/NevermetPress/~3/hDeElRViO24/" rel="nofollow">Encounter: Rooftop Rumble</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Anarkeith</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4162</link>
		<dc:creator>Anarkeith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4162</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m beginning to wonder if the speed issues may lessen further as we all get more experience with 4e. Most of us had years with 3e, and longer with earlier versions.

Also, I wonder how much of it is just a human need for attention. I&#039;ve run across players old and new in 4e who look to their character sheets first for answers. Combat is the one time you have a formal turn, so I wonder if people struggling with 4e might subconciously feel the need to spend more time there? Can giving players more rp opportunities outside combat speed it up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m beginning to wonder if the speed issues may lessen further as we all get more experience with 4e. Most of us had years with 3e, and longer with earlier versions.</p>
<p>Also, I wonder how much of it is just a human need for attention. I&#8217;ve run across players old and new in 4e who look to their character sheets first for answers. Combat is the one time you have a formal turn, so I wonder if people struggling with 4e might subconciously feel the need to spend more time there? Can giving players more rp opportunities outside combat speed it up?</p>
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		<title>By: Wyatt</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4159</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4159</guid>
		<description>My Eden Monster Math tweaks have so far produced great results for me. I don&#039;t like fast combats – a one-round blowout just isn&#039;t for me. But my math tweaks have so far given me solid, fun 3-4 rounds of combat. In essence, you should change monster HP to be more in line with PC HP and increase monster static damage (but not increasing the base dice) by 2 points or so. Use the Fighter, Rogue and Wizard as your HP models. In a very small nutshell, that&#039;s what I did and it&#039;s worked out for me. In fact, the static damage boost has made combats a bit deadlier and more resource-intensive and the HP tweaks have made PCs more confident that a Daily can really hurt a monster.
.-= Wyatt&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://spiritsofeden.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/so-whats-wyatt-doing/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;So what’s Wyatt doing?&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Eden Monster Math tweaks have so far produced great results for me. I don&#8217;t like fast combats – a one-round blowout just isn&#8217;t for me. But my math tweaks have so far given me solid, fun 3-4 rounds of combat. In essence, you should change monster HP to be more in line with PC HP and increase monster static damage (but not increasing the base dice) by 2 points or so. Use the Fighter, Rogue and Wizard as your HP models. In a very small nutshell, that&#8217;s what I did and it&#8217;s worked out for me. In fact, the static damage boost has made combats a bit deadlier and more resource-intensive and the HP tweaks have made PCs more confident that a Daily can really hurt a monster.<br />
.-= Wyatt&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://spiritsofeden.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/so-whats-wyatt-doing/" rel="nofollow">So what’s Wyatt doing?</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Tclynch</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/09/the-slow-combat-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-4158</link>
		<dc:creator>Tclynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2502#comment-4158</guid>
		<description>Err.... too SLOW? Really? Jesus, I find it MUCH faster than 3.5 could ever hope to be. YMMV....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Err&#8230;. too SLOW? Really? Jesus, I find it MUCH faster than 3.5 could ever hope to be. YMMV&#8230;.</p>
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