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	<title>Comments on: Should Players Suffer When PCs Die?</title>
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	<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/</link>
	<description>A Dungeons &#38; Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters &#38; Players</description>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-9757</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-9757</guid>
		<description>@Bryant
I&#039;ve certainly learned from this situation. I&#039;ve purchased a Raise Dead scroll for all LFR PCs I have who can afford it and are of suitable level. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

@Simon Newman
Let me clarify, I called this a one-shot game since I don&#039;t play a lot of LFR at this venue. However, for some of the players this is their weekly game. I&#039;ve since learned that the RPGA does have some pretty strict guidelines, so the DM actually had his hands tied (somewhat). Had this been a home game I would have done exactly what you suggested and handed the player a new PC to run until his main guy could be brought back to life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bryant<br />
I&#8217;ve certainly learned from this situation. I&#8217;ve purchased a Raise Dead scroll for all LFR PCs I have who can afford it and are of suitable level. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.</p>
<p>@Simon Newman<br />
Let me clarify, I called this a one-shot game since I don&#8217;t play a lot of LFR at this venue. However, for some of the players this is their weekly game. I&#8217;ve since learned that the RPGA does have some pretty strict guidelines, so the DM actually had his hands tied (somewhat). Had this been a home game I would have done exactly what you suggested and handed the player a new PC to run until his main guy could be brought back to life.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Newman</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-9543</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-9543</guid>
		<description>Joshua:
&quot;at the very least given that it was the first combat he could have had the player just change the name on the dead character’s sheet and introduced him by having him be a survivor of the initial attack just regaining consciousness&quot;

Agreed - I&#039;ve done this when a player had his PC killed very early, before the character was really established.  For a continuing game they will normally lose out of some XP, that&#039;s adequate penalty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua:<br />
&#8220;at the very least given that it was the first combat he could have had the player just change the name on the dead character’s sheet and introduced him by having him be a survivor of the initial attack just regaining consciousness&#8221;</p>
<p>Agreed &#8211; I&#8217;ve done this when a player had his PC killed very early, before the character was really established.  For a continuing game they will normally lose out of some XP, that&#8217;s adequate penalty.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Newman</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-9542</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-9542</guid>
		<description>For a one-shot like this I&#039;d think the best thing would be for the GM to hand the player another pregen PC, maybe 1 level lower if you want a slight penalty.  That might even work for a continuing game.

The GM is aiming to both maintain versimilitude, and maximise table fun.  Normally the two are complementary, but it can take a bit of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a one-shot like this I&#8217;d think the best thing would be for the GM to hand the player another pregen PC, maybe 1 level lower if you want a slight penalty.  That might even work for a continuing game.</p>
<p>The GM is aiming to both maintain versimilitude, and maximise table fun.  Normally the two are complementary, but it can take a bit of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Greatest Hits 2009: Should Players Suffer When PCs Die? — Dungeon&#39;s Master</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-8870</link>
		<dc:creator>Greatest Hits 2009: Should Players Suffer When PCs Die? — Dungeon&#39;s Master</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-8870</guid>
		<description>[...] http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die" rel="nofollow">http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bryant</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-8060</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-8060</guid>
		<description>Whoops, my bad! Sorry about that, Alvin -- thanks for the clarification, Ameron.

I think it&#039;s a really interesting and valuable discussion. I do tend to agree that the DM needs to stick to the treasure parcels as written -- opening it beyond that is a fairly noticeable risk, particularly in 4e. Magic items are a key component of a 4e character. Shared campaigns need a shared baseline.

But it&#039;s also good to make sure the game can keep going. I find myself suddenly thinking that I, on the occasions I get to play, could do my own part by keeping a Raise Dead scroll on me. Once I get to the proper level, anyhow...
.-= Bryant&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://clawclawpeck.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/4e-not-your-gms-keep-on-the-shadowfell-05/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[4e] Not Your GM’s Keep on the Shadowfell: SWARM(s)!&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, my bad! Sorry about that, Alvin &#8212; thanks for the clarification, Ameron.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a really interesting and valuable discussion. I do tend to agree that the DM needs to stick to the treasure parcels as written &#8212; opening it beyond that is a fairly noticeable risk, particularly in 4e. Magic items are a key component of a 4e character. Shared campaigns need a shared baseline.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s also good to make sure the game can keep going. I find myself suddenly thinking that I, on the occasions I get to play, could do my own part by keeping a Raise Dead scroll on me. Once I get to the proper level, anyhow&#8230;<br />
<span class="cluv"> Bryant&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://clawclawpeck.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/4e-not-your-gms-keep-on-the-shadowfell-05/" rel="nofollow">[4e] Not Your GM’s Keep on the Shadowfell: SWARM(s)!</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-8052</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-8052</guid>
		<description>@Solarius Tempi
I think a &quot;shared character&quot; is a great idea. I may actually suggest this to my PCs.

@Breten
Thank you so much for adding your comments. Although my goal with any article is to generate discussion, I tried very hard not to have this one turn into a piece where everyone (including me) just bashed the DM.

In hindsight I realize that what I might have perceived as resistance at the time was really just you trying to following the RGPA rules while giving us options. This was actually one of the best and most fun LFR adventured I&#039;d played in a long time and I think that was very much due to the players at the table and you as the DM. I certainly hope that you don&#039;t feel slighted or offended at my portrayal of the events.

@fireinthedust
When we realize that something in our D&amp;D games isn&#039;t working all we can do is try to learn from the experience and handle it differently next time.

@ryan
I think you&#039;re right. Perhaps I should have been clearer about that when I wrote the original article.

@Alvin
I have spelled out the acronym LFR to Living Forgotten Realms in the article after reading your comment. I guess I forget that not everyone is as &quot;hard core&quot; as I am and may not be familiar with the less-common terms.

I agree with your take on getting the merchant to transport the body and have him raised from the dead. All I can say is that I might have handled it differently if I was the DM (while trying to stay within the RPGAs [Role-Playing Game Association] rules).

@Bryant
At the time Alvin posted his comment Living Forgotten Realms was still just posted as LFR. Based on his feedback I went back and edited the original article.

I think your assessment of the situation is quite accurate. The DM may not have been open to our crazy ideas for bringing back our dead companion immediately, but he did give us an option (which we took) to bring back our friend and let him keep playing for the rest of the adventure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Solarius Tempi<br />
I think a &#8220;shared character&#8221; is a great idea. I may actually suggest this to my PCs.</p>
<p>@Breten<br />
Thank you so much for adding your comments. Although my goal with any article is to generate discussion, I tried very hard not to have this one turn into a piece where everyone (including me) just bashed the DM.</p>
<p>In hindsight I realize that what I might have perceived as resistance at the time was really just you trying to following the RGPA rules while giving us options. This was actually one of the best and most fun LFR adventured I&#8217;d played in a long time and I think that was very much due to the players at the table and you as the DM. I certainly hope that you don&#8217;t feel slighted or offended at my portrayal of the events.</p>
<p>@fireinthedust<br />
When we realize that something in our D&#038;D games isn&#8217;t working all we can do is try to learn from the experience and handle it differently next time.</p>
<p>@ryan<br />
I think you&#8217;re right. Perhaps I should have been clearer about that when I wrote the original article.</p>
<p>@Alvin<br />
I have spelled out the acronym LFR to Living Forgotten Realms in the article after reading your comment. I guess I forget that not everyone is as &#8220;hard core&#8221; as I am and may not be familiar with the less-common terms.</p>
<p>I agree with your take on getting the merchant to transport the body and have him raised from the dead. All I can say is that I might have handled it differently if I was the DM (while trying to stay within the RPGAs [Role-Playing Game Association] rules).</p>
<p>@Bryant<br />
At the time Alvin posted his comment Living Forgotten Realms was still just posted as LFR. Based on his feedback I went back and edited the original article.</p>
<p>I think your assessment of the situation is quite accurate. The DM may not have been open to our crazy ideas for bringing back our dead companion immediately, but he did give us an option (which we took) to bring back our friend and let him keep playing for the rest of the adventure.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryant</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-8038</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-8038</guid>
		<description>Alvin, two points:

LFR is defined in the second paragraph of the article. &quot;In a recent Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) game I played...&quot;

Giving the merchant 600 GP to get the resurrection done wouldn&#039;t have been a rules violation. Please note the GM&#039;s comment, above: he didn&#039;t want to encourage the party to go onward with one PC missing. That&#039;s why he cut that option off.

If I&#039;d been running this scenario, I would have gone with that option if desired -- which still would have removed the player from some of the game, mind you -- and scaled down encounters to the standard five person size while there was a PC missing. But that&#039;s with the benefit of hindsight. I certainly can&#039;t criticize someone for not thinking of that on the fly.

And unless I&#039;m woefully misreading this, the DM did provide a solution that allowed the player in question to get back in the game immediately, no? Go back to town, get raised, fail at one objective but perhaps not a complete failure?
.-= Bryant&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://clawclawpeck.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/4e-not-your-gms-keep-on-the-shadowfell-05/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[4e] Not Your GM’s Keep on the Shadowfell: SWARM(s)!&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alvin, two points:</p>
<p>LFR is defined in the second paragraph of the article. &#8220;In a recent Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) game I played&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Giving the merchant 600 GP to get the resurrection done wouldn&#8217;t have been a rules violation. Please note the GM&#8217;s comment, above: he didn&#8217;t want to encourage the party to go onward with one PC missing. That&#8217;s why he cut that option off.</p>
<p>If I&#8217;d been running this scenario, I would have gone with that option if desired &#8212; which still would have removed the player from some of the game, mind you &#8212; and scaled down encounters to the standard five person size while there was a PC missing. But that&#8217;s with the benefit of hindsight. I certainly can&#8217;t criticize someone for not thinking of that on the fly.</p>
<p>And unless I&#8217;m woefully misreading this, the DM did provide a solution that allowed the player in question to get back in the game immediately, no? Go back to town, get raised, fail at one objective but perhaps not a complete failure?<br />
<span class="cluv"> Bryant&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://clawclawpeck.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/4e-not-your-gms-keep-on-the-shadowfell-05/" rel="nofollow">[4e] Not Your GM’s Keep on the Shadowfell: SWARM(s)!</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Alvin</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-8026</link>
		<dc:creator>Alvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-8026</guid>
		<description>I read the whole article waiting to find out what game LFR was. And then all of the comments. At first I thought maybe Legend of the Five Rings (which is usually L5R) but that&#039;s not it. 

Clearly it&#039;s some D&amp;D variant that the RPGA uses (this only became apparent from the comments, so I think those of you getting indignant for people suggesting RPGA rules breaking options need to consider that), but I thought that was against the whole point of the RPGA.

I think D&amp;D is the only acronym you don&#039;t have to explain when you write an article, unless your goal is to be exclusive.

I&#039;m still puzzled how not giving the merchant 600gp or a promissory note for 600 gp (as long as the PCs had it) would be a rules violation.  It fits both Death rule #2 quoted above and the DMG rule to &quot;Say Yes&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read the whole article waiting to find out what game LFR was. And then all of the comments. At first I thought maybe Legend of the Five Rings (which is usually L5R) but that&#8217;s not it. </p>
<p>Clearly it&#8217;s some D&amp;D variant that the RPGA uses (this only became apparent from the comments, so I think those of you getting indignant for people suggesting RPGA rules breaking options need to consider that), but I thought that was against the whole point of the RPGA.</p>
<p>I think D&amp;D is the only acronym you don&#8217;t have to explain when you write an article, unless your goal is to be exclusive.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still puzzled how not giving the merchant 600gp or a promissory note for 600 gp (as long as the PCs had it) would be a rules violation.  It fits both Death rule #2 quoted above and the DMG rule to &#8220;Say Yes&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Don&#8217;t kill my player, please &#171; Mike&#39;s D&#38;D Blog</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-7977</link>
		<dc:creator>Don&#8217;t kill my player, please &#171; Mike&#39;s D&#38;D Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-7977</guid>
		<description>[...] am annoyed at the GM described in this Dungeon&#8217;s Master article. Not because he killed a character early, but because he didn&#8217;t have a backup plan and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] am annoyed at the GM described in this Dungeon&#8217;s Master article. Not because he killed a character early, but because he didn&#8217;t have a backup plan and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/should-players-suffer-when-pcs-die/comment-page-1/#comment-6981</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=2994#comment-6981</guid>
		<description>yeah for ppl reading who don&#039;t know what RPGA is, the original post prolly should have contained the death rules or at least the gist of them.  over the course of reading the comments i went from &quot;what a terrible DM!&quot; to &quot;wow why would anyone NOT carry a raise dead ritual in their pocket?&quot; to &quot;OMGWTFBBQ THE FIGHTER WAS ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS WHEN HE CAST IT??&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah for ppl reading who don&#8217;t know what RPGA is, the original post prolly should have contained the death rules or at least the gist of them.  over the course of reading the comments i went from &#8220;what a terrible DM!&#8221; to &#8220;wow why would anyone NOT carry a raise dead ritual in their pocket?&#8221; to &#8220;OMGWTFBBQ THE FIGHTER WAS ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS WHEN HE CAST IT??&#8221;</p>
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