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	<title>Comments on: Using Rituals In Skill Challenges</title>
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	<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/</link>
	<description>A Dungeons &#38; Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters &#38; Players</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:32:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-10229</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-10229</guid>
		<description>I do the same as wickedmurph in the campagin I DM, but purely by chance, lol.  One of the PCs in the group rolled an alchemist and he happened to show a keen interest in the flamable projectiles the kobold slingers were using during his very first 4e encouter... so I gave him one as part of the looted treasure (why is there never any left-over speciality ammo in monster loot??).  It was a wonderful exercise in rollplaying as he took time to figure out how and from what it was made.  Now, he has become one of most ruthless battlefield scavengers I have ever had the pleasure of DMing, and has given me a creative way of adding a higher level of detail to treasure parcels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do the same as wickedmurph in the campagin I DM, but purely by chance, lol.  One of the PCs in the group rolled an alchemist and he happened to show a keen interest in the flamable projectiles the kobold slingers were using during his very first 4e encouter&#8230; so I gave him one as part of the looted treasure (why is there never any left-over speciality ammo in monster loot??).  It was a wonderful exercise in rollplaying as he took time to figure out how and from what it was made.  Now, he has become one of most ruthless battlefield scavengers I have ever had the pleasure of DMing, and has given me a creative way of adding a higher level of detail to treasure parcels.</p>
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		<title>By: JEB</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-10060</link>
		<dc:creator>JEB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-10060</guid>
		<description>My players used Arcane Lock on an enemy doors to gain full access to a dungeon on their own premise ... pretty funny ... even if it was totally unexpected.

the scenario was thus: the players had reached the end of a corridor undetected and found three doors there. Instead of charging in one of the doors without knowing what was behind it, they decided to wizard lock all three (newbiedm ... I know this is where you maybe would send one of the monsters behind the doors out and thereby foil the PC&#039;s plans ... but I was rather curious to what they wanted do achieve by this tactic)

The Swordmage in Question had a 20 INT, was lvl 8 and trained in Arcana.
Basically this means that on average he will roll araound 24-25 on his check. Add 5 (read the ritual description if you wonder why) to the difficulty and the enemies in question needed to get more than 30 on their pick-lock or Strength attempt. At the same time the players could open the doors in question at-will ... (minor action though) ...

What the players achieved: they got a fun way of using a ritual, they decided when the enemies behind the doors could get out, and in effect they controlled the battlefield situation well ... even by letting the monsters out one or two at a time ...

Not the scenario I had in mind when writing the adventure ... but funny anyhow ...

... another ritual they used is wizards sight ... but this is a more costly ritual and therefore not so often used ... but when used it has given them a good edge against the monsters they are facing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My players used Arcane Lock on an enemy doors to gain full access to a dungeon on their own premise &#8230; pretty funny &#8230; even if it was totally unexpected.</p>
<p>the scenario was thus: the players had reached the end of a corridor undetected and found three doors there. Instead of charging in one of the doors without knowing what was behind it, they decided to wizard lock all three (newbiedm &#8230; I know this is where you maybe would send one of the monsters behind the doors out and thereby foil the PC&#8217;s plans &#8230; but I was rather curious to what they wanted do achieve by this tactic)</p>
<p>The Swordmage in Question had a 20 INT, was lvl 8 and trained in Arcana.<br />
Basically this means that on average he will roll araound 24-25 on his check. Add 5 (read the ritual description if you wonder why) to the difficulty and the enemies in question needed to get more than 30 on their pick-lock or Strength attempt. At the same time the players could open the doors in question at-will &#8230; (minor action though) &#8230;</p>
<p>What the players achieved: they got a fun way of using a ritual, they decided when the enemies behind the doors could get out, and in effect they controlled the battlefield situation well &#8230; even by letting the monsters out one or two at a time &#8230;</p>
<p>Not the scenario I had in mind when writing the adventure &#8230; but funny anyhow &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; another ritual they used is wizards sight &#8230; but this is a more costly ritual and therefore not so often used &#8230; but when used it has given them a good edge against the monsters they are facing</p>
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		<title>By: Getting The Most Out Of Rituals — Dungeon&#39;s Master</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-9193</link>
		<dc:creator>Getting The Most Out Of Rituals — Dungeon&#39;s Master</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-9193</guid>
		<description>[...] the recognition that rituals really are a third wheel that can occasionally be used in skill challenges, I wanted to find a way to make rituals a smoother and more natural part of the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the recognition that rituals really are a third wheel that can occasionally be used in skill challenges, I wanted to find a way to make rituals a smoother and more natural part of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Month in Review: November 2009 — Dungeon&#39;s Master</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7535</link>
		<dc:creator>Month in Review: November 2009 — Dungeon&#39;s Master</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7535</guid>
		<description>[...] In Skill Focus: Nature and Skill Focus: Streetwise we continued our ongoing exploration of alternative ways to use skills. We added The Kitchen Adventure to our expanding skill challenge library. And we offered some suggestions for Using Rituals In Skill Challenges. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In Skill Focus: Nature and Skill Focus: Streetwise we continued our ongoing exploration of alternative ways to use skills. We added The Kitchen Adventure to our expanding skill challenge library. And we offered some suggestions for Using Rituals In Skill Challenges. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hymn Collections for the Week of 11/23 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7376</link>
		<dc:creator>Hymn Collections for the Week of 11/23 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7376</guid>
		<description>[...] Master has some nice advice on encouraging the use of rituals within skill challenges. I find that rituals have really unfortunate time constraints that make it hard to employ them in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Master has some nice advice on encouraging the use of rituals within skill challenges. I find that rituals have really unfortunate time constraints that make it hard to employ them in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wimwick</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7107</link>
		<dc:creator>Wimwick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7107</guid>
		<description>@ newbiedm
I find that rituals have their place in the game. There are definitely certain instances where they aren&#039;t the best option. 

@ The Last Rogue
We are about to transition into a game that Ameron ran in 3.5. As I&#039;ve recreated my character for 4e the use of rituals has come up. I&#039;m playing a Bard, and the campaign was already very heavy skills based it seemed like the perfect time to brush up on rituals.

@ wickedmurph
I like the idea of handing out rituals as treasure bundles, especially in low magic campaigns. 

@ Geek Ken
Rituals do have the potential to keep DMs on their toes, but I don&#039;t think that they are game breaking. Because the PCs expend resources to gain the effects, DMs should (IMO) be willing to bend when certain parts of the adventure don&#039;t go as planned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ newbiedm<br />
I find that rituals have their place in the game. There are definitely certain instances where they aren&#8217;t the best option. </p>
<p>@ The Last Rogue<br />
We are about to transition into a game that Ameron ran in 3.5. As I&#8217;ve recreated my character for 4e the use of rituals has come up. I&#8217;m playing a Bard, and the campaign was already very heavy skills based it seemed like the perfect time to brush up on rituals.</p>
<p>@ wickedmurph<br />
I like the idea of handing out rituals as treasure bundles, especially in low magic campaigns. </p>
<p>@ Geek Ken<br />
Rituals do have the potential to keep DMs on their toes, but I don&#8217;t think that they are game breaking. Because the PCs expend resources to gain the effects, DMs should (IMO) be willing to bend when certain parts of the adventure don&#8217;t go as planned.</p>
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		<title>By: Geek Ken</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7069</link>
		<dc:creator>Geek Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7069</guid>
		<description>Solid ideas. I think rituals are wildcard solutions to non-combat obstacles.  They definitely have a place in skill challenges if a DM is willing to negotiate skill checks a bit, or offer bonuses to ritual use.

Rituals allow players to do the cool stuff, or trivialize obstacles DMs put in their path. Making that long trek through the desert sucking most the healing surges out of your players? Maybe they decided to stock up on a few rituals to make their rest or travel easier instead. Expect the group to bluff their way past the guards, or scale the wall of an enemy keep? Get ready for a wizard to make a temporary hole in the wall.

I think because rituals take a lot of time to cast (and are expensive), under pressure situations they don&#039;t work well. But if you are running a skill challenge and stressing that hours or even days pass throughout the challenge, rituals have a great use for them. It depends on the DM being flexible.
.-= Geek Ken&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://geekken.blogspot.com/2009/11/random-initiative-using-cards.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Random initiative using cards&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solid ideas. I think rituals are wildcard solutions to non-combat obstacles.  They definitely have a place in skill challenges if a DM is willing to negotiate skill checks a bit, or offer bonuses to ritual use.</p>
<p>Rituals allow players to do the cool stuff, or trivialize obstacles DMs put in their path. Making that long trek through the desert sucking most the healing surges out of your players? Maybe they decided to stock up on a few rituals to make their rest or travel easier instead. Expect the group to bluff their way past the guards, or scale the wall of an enemy keep? Get ready for a wizard to make a temporary hole in the wall.</p>
<p>I think because rituals take a lot of time to cast (and are expensive), under pressure situations they don&#8217;t work well. But if you are running a skill challenge and stressing that hours or even days pass throughout the challenge, rituals have a great use for them. It depends on the DM being flexible.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Geek Ken&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://geekken.blogspot.com/2009/11/random-initiative-using-cards.html" rel="nofollow">Random initiative using cards</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: newbiedm</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7040</link>
		<dc:creator>newbiedm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7040</guid>
		<description>No. 
They decided to cast a ritual in the middle of the underdark, while there were wandering monsters around.

They took a gamble and lost.

There are better places to use a ritual than a place crawling with duergar guards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No.<br />
They decided to cast a ritual in the middle of the underdark, while there were wandering monsters around.</p>
<p>They took a gamble and lost.</p>
<p>There are better places to use a ritual than a place crawling with duergar guards.</p>
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		<title>By: wickedmurph</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7039</link>
		<dc:creator>wickedmurph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7039</guid>
		<description>So, newbie - by attacking your characters and not letting them finish the ritual, you basically told them &quot;I&#039;m not going to let you use rituals&quot;.  How much the characters make use of them will depend on 2 things in your game - the opportunities that you present to learn them, and the benefits you allow them to gain from them.

Both are totally at the discretion of the DM, and how you present them will have a long-term impact on how much they are used.

In your example, the characters spent the resources, and got no benefit, in fact, they were penalized by being attacked.  So to them that says that rituals are a big fat waste of time and money.  

In my current campaign, I have 3 ritual casters and an alchemist in the party, so it&#039;s critical that I incorporate rituals as treasure, give characters in-game opportunities to learn rituals from others, and make sure that the players who want to use rituals receive concrete benefits from doings so.

And why not?  By taking the feat, the players handed me a freebie - they told me &quot;I think rituals sound fun&quot;.  So why not run with it?

Since I&#039;m playing in a dark-ages, cash-poor setting, I&#039;m giving some treasure parcels out as ritual components or bound spirits.  These items have an equivalent money value, but can&#039;t be used for anything other than rituals or alchemy.  Now I can give out lots of money, without having to worry about how they will spend money in bronze-age barter economy.  And I encourage them to use rituals.

I&#039;ve also house-ruled ritual creation or &quot;discovery&quot;.  If the players want to learn a ritual that they don&#039;t know - make it up, in effect, they pay 3x the listed cost and make an Arcana check at 15+ritual level (about a 50% chance for a lv 1 ritual for a trained arcanist).  Fail, and the cash is gone, succeed, and they can thereafter cast that ritual.

Some, I won&#039;t allow them to make up, some I&#039;ve already given in ritual book treasure, or learned from a grateful Orcish Shaman.  Rituals are an excellent tool, and a great way of getting the characters to really think about resources, and plan things out of combat.
.-= wickedmurph&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://kootenaygamer.blogspot.com/2009/09/4e-sandboxing.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;4e Sandboxing&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, newbie &#8211; by attacking your characters and not letting them finish the ritual, you basically told them &#8220;I&#8217;m not going to let you use rituals&#8221;.  How much the characters make use of them will depend on 2 things in your game &#8211; the opportunities that you present to learn them, and the benefits you allow them to gain from them.</p>
<p>Both are totally at the discretion of the DM, and how you present them will have a long-term impact on how much they are used.</p>
<p>In your example, the characters spent the resources, and got no benefit, in fact, they were penalized by being attacked.  So to them that says that rituals are a big fat waste of time and money.  </p>
<p>In my current campaign, I have 3 ritual casters and an alchemist in the party, so it&#8217;s critical that I incorporate rituals as treasure, give characters in-game opportunities to learn rituals from others, and make sure that the players who want to use rituals receive concrete benefits from doings so.</p>
<p>And why not?  By taking the feat, the players handed me a freebie &#8211; they told me &#8220;I think rituals sound fun&#8221;.  So why not run with it?</p>
<p>Since I&#8217;m playing in a dark-ages, cash-poor setting, I&#8217;m giving some treasure parcels out as ritual components or bound spirits.  These items have an equivalent money value, but can&#8217;t be used for anything other than rituals or alchemy.  Now I can give out lots of money, without having to worry about how they will spend money in bronze-age barter economy.  And I encourage them to use rituals.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also house-ruled ritual creation or &#8220;discovery&#8221;.  If the players want to learn a ritual that they don&#8217;t know &#8211; make it up, in effect, they pay 3x the listed cost and make an Arcana check at 15+ritual level (about a 50% chance for a lv 1 ritual for a trained arcanist).  Fail, and the cash is gone, succeed, and they can thereafter cast that ritual.</p>
<p>Some, I won&#8217;t allow them to make up, some I&#8217;ve already given in ritual book treasure, or learned from a grateful Orcish Shaman.  Rituals are an excellent tool, and a great way of getting the characters to really think about resources, and plan things out of combat.<br />
<span class="cluv"> wickedmurph&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://kootenaygamer.blogspot.com/2009/09/4e-sandboxing.html" rel="nofollow">4e Sandboxing</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: The Last Rogue</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/11/using-rituals-in-skill-challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-7038</link>
		<dc:creator>The Last Rogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3044#comment-7038</guid>
		<description>Good post. In my next campaign I plan on emphasizing the importance  of rituals. I&#039;ve a warlock who makes frequent use of comprehend languages and enchant magic item. . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post. In my next campaign I plan on emphasizing the importance  of rituals. I&#8217;ve a warlock who makes frequent use of comprehend languages and enchant magic item. . . .</p>
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