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	<title>Comments on: The Monster Balancing Act</title>
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	<description>A Dungeons &#38; Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters &#38; Players</description>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-10443</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-10443</guid>
		<description>@Punning Pundit
It sounds like you&#039;re getting the hang of being a DM. It&#039;s a good idea to make your encounters fun for your PCs. If you have a controller than lots of minions should be a staple. If you&#039;ve got a bunch of strikers then one really tough boss is probably more appropriate.

Don&#039;t forget to play to the PCs attacks and resistances. Every now and then make sure a monster is vulnerable to one of their attack types (like fire if the Fighter has a flaming sword, that kind of thing). Likewise with resistances. If three PCs have resist 5 poison then throw some monsters with poison attacks at them once and a while. PCs love that kind of thing. &quot;Ha ha, I have resist poison.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Punning Pundit<br />
It sounds like you&#8217;re getting the hang of being a DM. It&#8217;s a good idea to make your encounters fun for your PCs. If you have a controller than lots of minions should be a staple. If you&#8217;ve got a bunch of strikers then one really tough boss is probably more appropriate.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t forget to play to the PCs attacks and resistances. Every now and then make sure a monster is vulnerable to one of their attack types (like fire if the Fighter has a flaming sword, that kind of thing). Likewise with resistances. If three PCs have resist 5 poison then throw some monsters with poison attacks at them once and a while. PCs love that kind of thing. &#8220;Ha ha, I have resist poison.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Punning Pundit</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-10192</link>
		<dc:creator>Punning Pundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-10192</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a really new gm, and am enjoying this site. One of the things I try to think about in a combat encounter is what my pcs can do to each mob-type. 

For instance: a controller with lots of aoe should have a ton of minions to blast into pieces. A striker really wants to take on a big-tough baddy. Your defender should be keeping npc controllers or leaders off ballance, etc. 

A well-ballanced combat (from what I cam tell) knows the strenghth of the pcs and works to give each of them a challenge. In this way all of your players are having fun, and each feels vital...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a really new gm, and am enjoying this site. One of the things I try to think about in a combat encounter is what my pcs can do to each mob-type. </p>
<p>For instance: a controller with lots of aoe should have a ton of minions to blast into pieces. A striker really wants to take on a big-tough baddy. Your defender should be keeping npc controllers or leaders off ballance, etc. </p>
<p>A well-ballanced combat (from what I cam tell) knows the strenghth of the pcs and works to give each of them a challenge. In this way all of your players are having fun, and each feels vital&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9755</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9755</guid>
		<description>@btorgin

I&#039;ve been playing very close attention to what all of my monsters can do. I try to make sure that their powers compliment each others. It doesn&#039;t seem right to have one monster have fire resistance/cold vulnerability and have another monster have cold resistance/fire vulnerability.

In a game I ran after I wrote this article I used monsters that were levels 8 and 10 (the PCs are level 11). The XP math was exactly what the DMG suggested. The combat was a lot of fun, but the monsters didn&#039;t have many cool abilities. It was just a typical hack and slash fight.

As I speculated in the article above, I think it&#039;s just going to take some practice to get the balance right and make the encounters exciting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@btorgin</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been playing very close attention to what all of my monsters can do. I try to make sure that their powers compliment each others. It doesn&#8217;t seem right to have one monster have fire resistance/cold vulnerability and have another monster have cold resistance/fire vulnerability.</p>
<p>In a game I ran after I wrote this article I used monsters that were levels 8 and 10 (the PCs are level 11). The XP math was exactly what the DMG suggested. The combat was a lot of fun, but the monsters didn&#8217;t have many cool abilities. It was just a typical hack and slash fight.</p>
<p>As I speculated in the article above, I think it&#8217;s just going to take some practice to get the balance right and make the encounters exciting.</p>
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		<title>By: Hymn Collections For The Week Of 1/11/10 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9680</link>
		<dc:creator>Hymn Collections For The Week Of 1/11/10 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9680</guid>
		<description>[...] Master wrote an article on balancing encounters. I don&#8217;t normally put this much thought into fights with all honesty. My combat encounters [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Master wrote an article on balancing encounters. I don&#8217;t normally put this much thought into fights with all honesty. My combat encounters [...]</p>
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		<title>By: btorgin</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9514</link>
		<dc:creator>btorgin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9514</guid>
		<description>I run a campaign with 4 players and don&#039;t have any trouble with balance.  Since you drop 1 monster&#039;s xp budget for that level, it works out quite well.  Note, I don&#039;t play things beyond L +/- 1.  And we&#039;re only at 4th so things may change as we get higher level.  

Now, one thing I pay close attention to is monster mix and their special abilities.  Proper balance depends greatly on knowing what the monsters can do to the players.  Also, pay attention to how swingy the abilities are.  Does the monster have a low change to hit, high damage aoe?  Be aware you could get lucky with the dice and devastate the group. 

There&#039;s a number of things to get a feel for as you play.  It&#039;s much more math based than prior editions, but it does still require the DM to understand what all the monster&#039;s abilities mean.

Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I run a campaign with 4 players and don&#8217;t have any trouble with balance.  Since you drop 1 monster&#8217;s xp budget for that level, it works out quite well.  Note, I don&#8217;t play things beyond L +/- 1.  And we&#8217;re only at 4th so things may change as we get higher level.  </p>
<p>Now, one thing I pay close attention to is monster mix and their special abilities.  Proper balance depends greatly on knowing what the monsters can do to the players.  Also, pay attention to how swingy the abilities are.  Does the monster have a low change to hit, high damage aoe?  Be aware you could get lucky with the dice and devastate the group. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a number of things to get a feel for as you play.  It&#8217;s much more math based than prior editions, but it does still require the DM to understand what all the monster&#8217;s abilities mean.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9443</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9443</guid>
		<description>@Toldain
You provide excellent advice. Because the party had three leaders and no controller there wasn&#039;t much they could do to lower the monster&#039;s defense scores or increase their attack scores. I agree that they need to figure out a way to overcome these challenges, but you&#039;re right that I shouldn’t keep throwing these tougher monsters at them week after week.

I&#039;m not a big fan of including an NPC as the &quot;voice of the DM&quot; mainly because it&#039;s one more creature I have to work during the game. But I can certainly understand the benefits of doing so.

@Neuroglyph
I plan to use this exact monster grouping for the majority of my encounters. For now I&#039;m still trying a few different combos while the PCs get back into the swing of things. I do plan to keep using lots of minions because this group really feels powerful when they drop monsters, even if they&#039;re just minions.

@wickedmurph
It sounds like you&#039;ve become a pro at this kind of encounter. I&#039;ll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion.

@Richard
Our group is down a player so we only have 4 PCs. I&#039;m finding that 4e D&amp;D really requires 5 PCs or more. Playing with 4 makes balance tough.

I think your math is bang on the money. This is exactly the kind of range I&#039;ve been striving for too. I agree that MM2 creates are tougher than MM1 creatures of the same level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Toldain<br />
You provide excellent advice. Because the party had three leaders and no controller there wasn&#8217;t much they could do to lower the monster&#8217;s defense scores or increase their attack scores. I agree that they need to figure out a way to overcome these challenges, but you&#8217;re right that I shouldn’t keep throwing these tougher monsters at them week after week.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a big fan of including an NPC as the &#8220;voice of the DM&#8221; mainly because it&#8217;s one more creature I have to work during the game. But I can certainly understand the benefits of doing so.</p>
<p>@Neuroglyph<br />
I plan to use this exact monster grouping for the majority of my encounters. For now I&#8217;m still trying a few different combos while the PCs get back into the swing of things. I do plan to keep using lots of minions because this group really feels powerful when they drop monsters, even if they&#8217;re just minions.</p>
<p>@wickedmurph<br />
It sounds like you&#8217;ve become a pro at this kind of encounter. I&#8217;ll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion.</p>
<p>@Richard<br />
Our group is down a player so we only have 4 PCs. I&#8217;m finding that 4e D&#038;D really requires 5 PCs or more. Playing with 4 makes balance tough.</p>
<p>I think your math is bang on the money. This is exactly the kind of range I&#8217;ve been striving for too. I agree that MM2 creates are tougher than MM1 creatures of the same level.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9384</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9384</guid>
		<description>I think it also depends on how the players in your campaign are with min/maxing and such.  I pulled the out the stops on my D&amp;D group a few weeks ago and put them into the level 11 dungeon delve (they were only lvl 9) (there were 6 players though and I lowered the AC and reflex of the hydra by 2, I kept the other defenses the same, so the ranged casters did have a bit more trouble hitting) and they owned the delve.  They did have a bit of trouble with the flaming zombies and immolith but they all survived.  But the group I play with min/maxes everything and a few players did have a +3 weapon/implement that I had given out recently during the campaign.  A nonmin/maxed group would not normally survive that delve at level 9 though.

With my campaign, I&#039;ll toss in all different levels of monsters, and I use monster builder a lot to change monsters to the level I want as well.  The balance is not easy.  When I create the encounters I tend to try to make it so the monster defenses are high enough so the players do have chance to miss but not too high to make them only hit 25% of the time.  I try to keep that balance at around 55 -60% hit chance.  (if the average PC has a +15 to hit, the average monster defense is around 24)  solos I will have higher.  If they play right and get combat advantage, then it jumps to 65 - 70%.

I try to work the monsters hit chance the same way, monsters have around a 60% hit chance on strikers, and about a 45% on defenders.  (that balance can get thrown off in my campaign though, we have a dwarf warden in the party that if he plays his skills right, can get his ac to between 32 and 34).

One other thing I&#039;ve noticed, is that the monsters in MM2 seem to have higher defenses and attack scores than the monsters in MM1, so you might want to adjust for this as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it also depends on how the players in your campaign are with min/maxing and such.  I pulled the out the stops on my D&amp;D group a few weeks ago and put them into the level 11 dungeon delve (they were only lvl 9) (there were 6 players though and I lowered the AC and reflex of the hydra by 2, I kept the other defenses the same, so the ranged casters did have a bit more trouble hitting) and they owned the delve.  They did have a bit of trouble with the flaming zombies and immolith but they all survived.  But the group I play with min/maxes everything and a few players did have a +3 weapon/implement that I had given out recently during the campaign.  A nonmin/maxed group would not normally survive that delve at level 9 though.</p>
<p>With my campaign, I&#8217;ll toss in all different levels of monsters, and I use monster builder a lot to change monsters to the level I want as well.  The balance is not easy.  When I create the encounters I tend to try to make it so the monster defenses are high enough so the players do have chance to miss but not too high to make them only hit 25% of the time.  I try to keep that balance at around 55 -60% hit chance.  (if the average PC has a +15 to hit, the average monster defense is around 24)  solos I will have higher.  If they play right and get combat advantage, then it jumps to 65 &#8211; 70%.</p>
<p>I try to work the monsters hit chance the same way, monsters have around a 60% hit chance on strikers, and about a 45% on defenders.  (that balance can get thrown off in my campaign though, we have a dwarf warden in the party that if he plays his skills right, can get his ac to between 32 and 34).</p>
<p>One other thing I&#8217;ve noticed, is that the monsters in MM2 seem to have higher defenses and attack scores than the monsters in MM1, so you might want to adjust for this as well.</p>
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		<title>By: wickedmurph</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9382</link>
		<dc:creator>wickedmurph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9382</guid>
		<description>I tend to do very big, sprawling, multi-phase encounters.  Sandbox encounters, in a way.  Maptools lets me do that pretty easily.  I use one or two tough monsters, a few mid-range ones, and a metric crap-ton of minions.

That way, my players need to use all the different tactics to survive - focusing fire on some monsters, crowd control and area effects on others, flanking, using terrain.  Plus, by eliminating the short rests between encounters, it stretches the parties resources more, and makes leaders and healers critical.
.-= wickedmurph&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://kootenaygamer.blogspot.com/2009/09/4e-sandboxing.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;4e Sandboxing&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to do very big, sprawling, multi-phase encounters.  Sandbox encounters, in a way.  Maptools lets me do that pretty easily.  I use one or two tough monsters, a few mid-range ones, and a metric crap-ton of minions.</p>
<p>That way, my players need to use all the different tactics to survive &#8211; focusing fire on some monsters, crowd control and area effects on others, flanking, using terrain.  Plus, by eliminating the short rests between encounters, it stretches the parties resources more, and makes leaders and healers critical.<br />
.-= wickedmurph&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://kootenaygamer.blogspot.com/2009/09/4e-sandboxing.html" rel="nofollow">4e Sandboxing</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Neuroglyph</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9381</link>
		<dc:creator>Neuroglyph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9381</guid>
		<description>My favorite setup is using a single boss monster that is 1-2 levels higher than the average party level (APL), then a group of subordinates thaat are 1-3 levels under the APL.  It keeps encounter groups from becoming as large, as when you use only weaker monsters - that single leader counts for quite a chunk of your XP budget, especially if he&#039;s elite or a leader/elite.

4e has a bit of a balance issue in the Paragon and Elite tiers due to the Non-AC Defenses of monsters vs. PCs - in fact, I did a blog about it after reading numerous posts on message boards - and using lower level monsters to fill out the bulk of your Encounter XP budgets really helps a DM keep encounters from becoming overly brutal against the PCs.

Besides, it feels more heroic if the PCs are cleaving through lots of little guys to get to the big bad boss!
.-= Neuroglyph&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1066&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Secret Sects: The Ebon Cabal – Part II&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite setup is using a single boss monster that is 1-2 levels higher than the average party level (APL), then a group of subordinates thaat are 1-3 levels under the APL.  It keeps encounter groups from becoming as large, as when you use only weaker monsters &#8211; that single leader counts for quite a chunk of your XP budget, especially if he&#8217;s elite or a leader/elite.</p>
<p>4e has a bit of a balance issue in the Paragon and Elite tiers due to the Non-AC Defenses of monsters vs. PCs &#8211; in fact, I did a blog about it after reading numerous posts on message boards &#8211; and using lower level monsters to fill out the bulk of your Encounter XP budgets really helps a DM keep encounters from becoming overly brutal against the PCs.</p>
<p>Besides, it feels more heroic if the PCs are cleaving through lots of little guys to get to the big bad boss!<br />
.-= Neuroglyph&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1066" rel="nofollow">Secret Sects: The Ebon Cabal – Part II</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Toldain</title>
		<link>http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/the-monster-balancing-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9380</link>
		<dc:creator>Toldain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=3536#comment-9380</guid>
		<description>Well, if the PC&#039;s average to-hit bonus is +17 and the monster&#039;s defenses are in the high 20&#039;s to low 30&#039;s that means that the PCs number to roll better than on a d20 is somewhere between 11 and 16.  This isn&#039;t impossible, though it can be frustrating.

Experienced, team oriented players, who know their powers well will do a few things to give themselves better shots at hitting.

1. They will exploit flanking.  
2. They will use powers that grant bonuses to teammates to hit with big powers.
3. They will figure out and hit the monster&#039;s weakest defense, which is usually worth 2 or 3 at least.

I wouldn&#039;t hand them &quot;tough to hit&quot; as a steady diet, but it&#039;s definitely one of the sorts of things that players need to figure out how to deal with, so I wouldn&#039;t completely avoid it either.

Of course, the point is for the group to have fun, so you as a GM have to finely calibrate the level of challenge for it to be fun.   Remember that overcoming difficulties can be fun.

I like having an NPC in the group, and this is one of the reasons.  So the NPC can shout suggestions, or carry out tactical moves that the PC&#039;s will see and imitate.   Don&#039;t make them an oracle, though.   Sometimes make a bad suggestion, or stick to stuff that would make sense to their class/race/experience level.
.-= Toldain&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://toldaintalks.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-mmo-of-decade-and-other-4-top-games.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;My MMO of the Decade, (and the other 4 top games of the Decade)&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if the PC&#8217;s average to-hit bonus is +17 and the monster&#8217;s defenses are in the high 20&#8242;s to low 30&#8242;s that means that the PCs number to roll better than on a d20 is somewhere between 11 and 16.  This isn&#8217;t impossible, though it can be frustrating.</p>
<p>Experienced, team oriented players, who know their powers well will do a few things to give themselves better shots at hitting.</p>
<p>1. They will exploit flanking.<br />
2. They will use powers that grant bonuses to teammates to hit with big powers.<br />
3. They will figure out and hit the monster&#8217;s weakest defense, which is usually worth 2 or 3 at least.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t hand them &#8220;tough to hit&#8221; as a steady diet, but it&#8217;s definitely one of the sorts of things that players need to figure out how to deal with, so I wouldn&#8217;t completely avoid it either.</p>
<p>Of course, the point is for the group to have fun, so you as a GM have to finely calibrate the level of challenge for it to be fun.   Remember that overcoming difficulties can be fun.</p>
<p>I like having an NPC in the group, and this is one of the reasons.  So the NPC can shout suggestions, or carry out tactical moves that the PC&#8217;s will see and imitate.   Don&#8217;t make them an oracle, though.   Sometimes make a bad suggestion, or stick to stuff that would make sense to their class/race/experience level.<br />
.-= Toldain&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://toldaintalks.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-mmo-of-decade-and-other-4-top-games.html" rel="nofollow">My MMO of the Decade, (and the other 4 top games of the Decade)</a> =-.</p>
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