Comments on: Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/ A Dungeons & Dragons Resource Blog For Dungeon Masters & Players Thu, 09 Feb 2012 05:58:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Should Monsters Employ Smart Tactics? — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-48095 Should Monsters Employ Smart Tactics? — Dungeon's Master Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:44:07 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-48095 [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...] [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...]

]]> By: Accepting a Suicide Mission — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-46240 Accepting a Suicide Mission — Dungeon's Master Tue, 31 May 2011 14:26:43 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-46240 [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...] [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...]

]]> By: Designing Encounters That Can’t Be Beat (Part 1) — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-38427 Designing Encounters That Can’t Be Beat (Part 1) — Dungeon's Master Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:31:36 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-38427 [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...] [...] Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...]

]]> By: Retreat Is Always An Option, At Least It Should Be — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-34785 Retreat Is Always An Option, At Least It Should Be — Dungeon's Master Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:31:52 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-34785 [...] A common belief among many D&D players is that if the party is balanced and the DM is doing his job properly, every encounter is beatable. This kind of thinking among players instills within them with a sense of invulnerability – an invulnerability that they do not in fact possess. However, with the way that the 4e D&D mechanics work, more often than not players should have a pretty reasonable chance of overcoming a balanced encounter. Thus players continue believing that they’re capable of defeating everything they face. It never even occurs to them that in some instances they’ll face an opponent they can’t beat. [...] [...] A common belief among many D&D players is that if the party is balanced and the DM is doing his job properly, every encounter is beatable. This kind of thinking among players instills within them with a sense of invulnerability – an invulnerability that they do not in fact possess. However, with the way that the 4e D&D mechanics work, more often than not players should have a pretty reasonable chance of overcoming a balanced encounter. Thus players continue believing that they’re capable of defeating everything they face. It never even occurs to them that in some instances they’ll face an opponent they can’t beat. [...]

]]> By: JonathonVolkmer http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-32894 JonathonVolkmer Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:46:22 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-32894 I should say first, that I really like Maxo's note about alternatives to outright PKs. There are a lot of other good ideas here too, too many to comment on. Frankly, I have long been a fan of warning players before the campaign starts that stupidity is lethal. I've killed relatively few characters over the years, because they know going in that I rarely pull punches. That said, my players are generally careful and creative when it comes to encounters and problem solving, and I hope to eventually raise them to the level of Sun Tzu-style battle strategy: win the fight before it starts! I should say first, that I really like Maxo’s note about alternatives to outright PKs. There are a lot of other good ideas here too, too many to comment on.

Frankly, I have long been a fan of warning players before the campaign starts that stupidity is lethal. I’ve killed relatively few characters over the years, because they know going in that I rarely pull punches.

That said, my players are generally careful and creative when it comes to encounters and problem solving, and I hope to eventually raise them to the level of Sun Tzu-style battle strategy: win the fight before it starts!

]]> By: Jack the Cleric http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-32749 Jack the Cleric Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:54:21 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-32749 I forgot until just now. I did hear some DMs back in the day say they were disappointed if they didn't get to kill a character (usually to a bystander just before a game within earshot of the players), but it was mostly "trash talking" to put players into a proper paranoia. We did a lot of running (for our lives) in those games now that I think of it. LOL. Our game playing up to the point of combat most likely resembled the scene from 2001 A Space Odyssey when the primates are approaching the obelisk and keep retreating and making noises at each other. Quite to the contrary of the article, we had a very active fear of most critters unknown, and no room was ever entered without 5 minutes (or more!) of questions about room appearance, and always 10 foot poles tapping/leading the way! I forgot until just now. I did hear some DMs back in the day say they were disappointed if they didn’t get to kill a character (usually to a bystander just before a game within earshot of the players), but it was mostly “trash talking” to put players into a proper paranoia. We did a lot of running (for our lives) in those games now that I think of it. LOL.

Our game playing up to the point of combat most likely resembled the scene from 2001 A Space Odyssey when the primates are approaching the obelisk and keep retreating and making noises at each other. Quite to the contrary of the article, we had a very active fear of most critters unknown, and no room was ever entered without 5 minutes (or more!) of questions about room appearance, and always 10 foot poles tapping/leading the way!

]]> By: Jack the Cleric http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-32744 Jack the Cleric Tue, 04 Jan 2011 01:00:49 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-32744 I started gaming mid 80's in a hobby shop filled to the roof with Naval ship to ship, Napoleonic, and World War 2 wargamers who were also old school D&D, AD&D, and even Chainmail miniature players. 1st edition was the current game du jour, but plenty around who still gamed like it was brown book. We died all the time. You would have thought it was cruel by today's standard, but that was life. You screw up, you die; so learn and begin anew. I found every character is just as important as the last, and the death is just as hard every time it happens. I find video games no different. Even if you have unlimited lives, to go on a long run and then die for the 12th time, you still groan and feel the frustration. Bad thing about games like 3.5 is the effort that must be put in to create the character in the first place. Old school was far far easier. Roll the stats, basic equipment, give a name and have some idea of background and voila! instant new character. I still see game death as just a speed bump, and nothing to get hung up over, but only many a death can get you to that place. Nothing to be gained by trying to over-protect the gamers. OTOH, 11 and 9 year olds may have a harder time I guess, but teenagers like myself when I started are hardly much better. On another note: I would never say to anyone "life isn't fair, neither is my game." They know why they died... most likely bad dice rolls on their part, a lack of asking the right questions, or really great die rolling by the bad guys. I would have to have a long talk with anyone that would accuse a DM of being "out to get them" since they may be taking a game too personally. I grew up in the age of "evil demonic D&D" accusations so finding someone getting a bit too wrapped up in the game world means a bit more to me, but if most are having a great time, death notwithstanding, and one guy is really bumming out, he may need talking to. I started gaming mid 80′s in a hobby shop filled to the roof with Naval ship to ship, Napoleonic, and World War 2 wargamers who were also old school D&D, AD&D, and even Chainmail miniature players. 1st edition was the current game du jour, but plenty around who still gamed like it was brown book. We died all the time. You would have thought it was cruel by today’s standard, but that was life. You screw up, you die; so learn and begin anew. I found every character is just as important as the last, and the death is just as hard every time it happens.
I find video games no different. Even if you have unlimited lives, to go on a long run and then die for the 12th time, you still groan and feel the frustration. Bad thing about games like 3.5 is the effort that must be put in to create the character in the first place. Old school was far far easier. Roll the stats, basic equipment, give a name and have some idea of background and voila! instant new character. I still see game death as just a speed bump, and nothing to get hung up over, but only many a death can get you to that place. Nothing to be gained by trying to over-protect the gamers.
OTOH, 11 and 9 year olds may have a harder time I guess, but teenagers like myself when I started are hardly much better.
On another note: I would never say to anyone “life isn’t fair, neither is my game.” They know why they died… most likely bad dice rolls on their part, a lack of asking the right questions, or really great die rolling by the bad guys. I would have to have a long talk with anyone that would accuse a DM of being “out to get them” since they may be taking a game too personally. I grew up in the age of “evil demonic D&D” accusations so finding someone getting a bit too wrapped up in the game world means a bit more to me, but if most are having a great time, death notwithstanding, and one guy is really bumming out, he may need talking to.

]]> By: Ryan http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-32099 Ryan Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:06:39 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-32099 3.5 SoulKnife WearBear Cleric Fighter -I forget...most likely a heavy caster. All level 13 and had been fighting random monsters all day. Doing pretty well too. A buddy of mine got home from work and decided to have us fight something. 4 Upper Tear Basilisks (Monster Manual 1 I think). He had us enter a box canyon and 4 failed DC28 will saves vs petrification later....we died in 1 round. The one of us with the highest will save needed to roll a 14....the rest needed a 18-20. 3.5
SoulKnife
WearBear Cleric
Fighter
-I forget…most likely a heavy caster.

All level 13 and had been fighting random monsters all day. Doing pretty well too.

A buddy of mine got home from work and decided to have us fight something.

4 Upper Tear Basilisks (Monster Manual 1 I think). He had us enter a box canyon and 4 failed DC28 will saves vs petrification later….we died in 1 round.

The one of us with the highest will save needed to roll a 14….the rest needed a 18-20.

]]> By: MicTar http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-32090 MicTar Mon, 27 Dec 2010 17:56:32 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-32090 I am currently running a dungeon crawl where my PC's are going to face this exact situation. But I have built in a Deus ex machina situation for it so that the entire party does not die (this is also a hook for a larger campaign). But they also have the ability to escape the whole situation if they would explore in a different direction. My problem is I can not let 2 of my PC's die as they are both being run by 1st time pen and paper gamers (one is 11 the other is 9) and I do not want to make them hate these type of games. But at the same time I want them to learn the realities of gaming that the PC does not always win. Any sugestions? I am currently running a dungeon crawl where my PC’s are going to face this exact situation. But I have built in a Deus ex machina situation for it so that the entire party does not die (this is also a hook for a larger campaign). But they also have the ability to escape the whole situation if they would explore in a different direction.

My problem is I can not let 2 of my PC’s die as they are both being run by 1st time pen and paper gamers (one is 11 the other is 9) and I do not want to make them hate these type of games. But at the same time I want them to learn the realities of gaming that the PC does not always win. Any sugestions?

]]> By: Greatest Hits 2010: Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat — Dungeon's Master http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/fighting-an-opponent-you-cant-beat/comment-page-1/#comment-31671 Greatest Hits 2010: Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat — Dungeon's Master Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:02:27 +0000 http://dungeonsmaster.com/?p=4387#comment-31671 [...] From April 12, 2010, Dungeon’s Master once again presents: Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...] [...] From April 12, 2010, Dungeon’s Master once again presents: Fighting an Opponent You Can’t Beat [...]

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