Player – I rolled a 15, plus 7. Do I hit his AC?
DM – What’s the total?
Player – Um, hold on. 15… (Counts under breath) 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. (At full volume again) 22! Does that hit?
DM – Yes it does. His AC is 14.
I’ve been playing a lot of public-play D&D over the past year; mostly D&D Encounters but also a fair amount of LFR. This is of course in addition to my regular weekly game. Playing in all of these games allows me to see how other people play and lets me learn from the experience. It also highlights problem areas in my game and in the game of the other players and DMs.
One disturbing trend that I’m seeing more and more is players that don’t (or possibly even can’t) do the math. They roll a d20, call out the result and then give me their modifiers and ask if they hit. In many cases the roll is high enough to beat the monster’s defences, so I know they hit even without the modifier added in; however, I always ask for the total before confirming a hit or miss. And it’s not only happening with attack rolls. It’ happens with damage rolls too.
As the DM I always try to keep the gaming moving. I have a lot of tricks and shortcuts I use at my table to ensure that the game run smoothly. But I feel that taking the time to get the players in the habit of doing the math is worth any minimal delays it may initially cause.
Before going on, I must admit that I have two exceptions to my “give me the total” rule. The first is when a player rolls a 20. After all a 20 always hits so the only reason to call out the total is when the monster has a really high defence and there’s an outside chance that it’s just a regular hit and not a crit. However, in the games I’ve played since 4e was released I’ve only ever seen a natural 20 not result in a crit once. The other exception is after the monsters defence score is known (usually because I’ve announced it to the table) and you’ve done the math in your head. In these cases I accept it when a player rolls, calls out the number, and simply tells me they hit.
Even though I always ask for totals, whether it’s an attack roll or a damage roll, a lot of players still don’t do it. In all fairness, we do have a few younger players participating in D&D Encounters – but this is simple math. I can’t believe they don’t give me the total because they can’t add two or three relatively small numbers in their head. What I think it comes down to is laziness and poor gaming protocol.
In most cases when there are a few players that don’t do the math themselves, other players at the table will often do it for them when I ask for the total. This presents me with difficult dilemma. On the one hand I’m glad that someone can do the math and give me a total quickly. However, the person giving me the number isn’t the player who rolled the dice. So my attempt to get them into the habit of giving me the final result clearly isn’t working. And when they realize that the other players will help them, they have no incentive to do it themselves.
When the other players help the lazy ones by doing the math, I know they’re just trying to help speed things up. I also know that the more I keep asking for the totals, especially when it’s apparent that the roll hits, the more I’m beginning to look like a jerk DM. But I believe that in the long run I’m helping the lazy players become better players, and I’m helping them speed up any game they’re going to play in down the road, whether it’s my game or someone else’s.
Do you have this problem at your gaming table? When players in your game (especially in public-play games) don’t add the numbers themselves, do you do it for them? Am I blowing this whole thing out of proportion and making a big deal out of nothing or do you see this as a common and growing issue?
Related reading:
View Comments (29)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1 2 3 4 Next »I've had this as a passing issue with a few players. It shouldn't bug me but it does (usually when i'm tired and my temper is a little shorter than it should be).
It bothers me more as a courtesy thing above and beyond anything else. The players wouldn't like it if I told them that the monster rolled '12 + 6 + 1 (charge bonus)' and then asked them if it hit. Many don't even consider this when giving out their own attack roll data. Any decent DM i've ever seen always gives out the total. Players maybe take this for granted. It almost feels rude when they expect the DM to do all their maths. This feels like the impact of video games promoting lazy gamers. Many expect everything to be done entirely for them by the magic box that provides their entertainment. (I feel like a grumpy old man!).
I realise this all sounds very petty from my perspective. I admit its a pet hate and many players don't realise they cause irritation by doing it. I also have too many other players who like to 'show off' their quick maths skills by yelling out the answer which saves my poor brain from having to actually do the maths. As you say above, they really just want to be helpful but it doesn't help solve the root problem.
One player i've come across I'm confident was only reading out all the numbers out of insecurity. Trying to make sure they had added up all the relevant numbers. This came more from their inexperience and often caused us to mention things such as combat advantage, charge bonuses, weapon bonuses etc which the player had genuinely forgotten. In this situation I can see the benefit of this kind of behaviour. I guess where appropriate you just have to run with it and then wean the player out of that process once you think their rules knowledge is a little more sturdy.
Cheers for the article Ameron. This was not a rant I thought i'd be writing when I woke up this morning.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers
Blinkey ;)
We got one guy at our table, he's 41, has a doctorate degree in philosophy, the most fiscally responsible person I know (bought a house recently with the full 20% down, double payments, etc) and in general is a really bright guy.
Can't do basic math worth a damn.
I've taken a couple quick videos of us playing in a 3.5 game and in one he figures his total attack result incorrectly in at least 3 different occasions within 2 minutes.
The vast majority of it is clearly laziness but, part of it is that too many people don't do basic math in their head every day. They trust cash machines when purchasing goods and computers in general, to do all the work. Keep enforcing people to do the math, if we don't, who will.
I have noticed the same problem at my FLGS for Encounters. While my private group consists of math savvy players, the public games have shown otherwise. While there is no correlation, it's something I've had to get used to. There seems to always been one player on Wednesday evenings that exemplifies this (above). It hasn't been a problem so far since we're all level 2 and combat is still simple enough that it doesn't slow anything down.
However, during my Histhaven session (for Free RPG Day on Saturday), we had two players (out of four) that struggled with this. It definitely slowed the game down. It didn't help that they were slow on their turns anyway...We were also playing at Paragon level, so it was more dramatic since there is more math, powers, tactics, and other considerations during combat.
The biggest problem was that the player that struggled most with the numbers had incorrect numbers on their character sheet, thus effecting every roll. He had a hand-written character sheet, so I suspect had he actually used a Character Builder, it wouldn't have been such a problem.
Another problem may be out-of-turn math/numbers, too. If the player is struggling to figure out if 'such and such power' will hit or not, it seems to compound on present slowness.
I tend to be one of those players that throws out the numbers to speed up the game.
One thing i've done is have monster defense stats written on folded and propped up index cards, so everyone at the table can see them. I don't care about the argument that we should keep those things hidden; a warrior can tell if a monster is better at taking damage off its armor/hide or dodging, etc. Whatever. Once the players no longer had to ask if their roll hit, they started doing the math automatically and could just tell me whether they hit or missed. It's a little more preptime for the DM, and can slow things down if you run a game with a more random encounter style where you come up with monsters on the fly, but it also saves a lot of flipping around in the pages for the DM during combat.
@Sully
I've also employed index cards displaying monster defenses, specifically when they go up against 'bosses'.
Perhaps asking the player(s) on the spot is causing them to struggle more, whereas having an index card displaying numbers the entire time would mitigate it.
This is a great article and something all DMs and players can related to at some point.
In the last 4e campaign I played in, the DM would tell us what numbers were required to hit his monsters, and we would tell him if we hit or not. Usually, it worked like a charm and sped up combat.
Sometimes, though, it became quite comical as (occasionally) he would have to tell us his defences over and over and over and over...
I gamed with a guy that struggles with even basic arithmetic. Instead of making it a constant pressure on him and putting him in a negative spotlight, the players did math as a team. Usually one of the more math apt payers would sit next to them and help them out.
While playing with a different group we had the opposite end of the spectrum, we were playing D&D3.5 at epic levels where the numbers become staggering and one guy at the table was faster than a calculator. So everyone called the relevant numbers and he spat them back out like lightning.
For people that like math, it brings an extra layer of enjoyment to the game, for those lacking an aptitude in math, it can become an impediment to their enjoyment so I recommend to share the load. That is one benefit of a team.
My two coppers.
It's not all laziness. Some people simply have trouble with basic math. As a DM who does have some trouble with math I can be a bit slow with the numbers. Since I know this is a problem for me I always make sure I have a calculator handy as a last resort.
Besides the game is about telling a story as a group and having fun. For someone that struggles with math having it displayed out in front of everyone like that isn't much fun.
I run into this problem all the time, but not just in gaming, but in everyday applications. Before going back to college, I used to manage multiple arcades for Namco throughout Kentucky. Much of my time was doing paperwork, working on machines and dealing with employee issues, but there were times when my employees would be overwhelmed by kids and I ended up behind a redemption counter with them to help kids cash in their tickets for prizes. I am 32, so even though I have been out of school for awhile, it hasn't been that long, yet I had to do all of my homework without a calculator. We are talking basic addition and subtraction as the kids were cashing in their tickets, but I was able to handle three or more kids simultaneously while many of my employees struggled with one. If I didn't buy them a calculator to help them, I do not know how they would have been able to do anything in a timely manner. This applies to college students as well. I see it all the time in my English classes, where some basic math problem comes up, a student, or even the teacher gets it wrong, and then laughs it off claiming that they are English majors and not math majors. This isn't calculus, we are talking basic addition, subtraction, multiplication or division.
This isn't a D&D problem, this is an education problem, and while your intentions are good, I think you may be putting too much pressure on people who very well may not have the tools to complete the task, even one which we consider so ridiculously easy. To others, this is a stressful test in front of many onlookers who they may feel inferior too every time they have to roll the dice. By calling them out each time, it makes the problem worse. I wouldn't necessarily give them a free pass, and I would allow them to do the smaller numbers, but if they are having difficulties and the group is their to help, I would let them help. It is also a judgment call whether they need help or are lazy. Laziness should not be tolerated and I would ask them to add it up themselves every time if they are able.
I hate posting about being an English major and then doing something stupid like using their instead of there when needed. See, we all screw up from time to time. Maybe next time I will proofread before hitting the submit button.