Throughout the life-cycle of Dungeons & Dragons, dungeons have been evolving. Recent discussion around the RPG Bloggers Network has revolved around the Mega-Dungeon. The nostalgia brought up from this discussion is fantastic and brings to mind memories of exploring vast labyrinths. For that matter, it reminds me of playing The Bard’s Tale on my Commodore, but I digress.
Recently, Ameron has written about dungeons. He’s covered the topic through a skill challenge and as DM aide on pacing the adventure. His articles got me thinking about dungeons and the place they hold in the game. First and foremost I’m not advocating that dungeons be removed from our great game and that we rename it Dragons. I do think there is a case to be made towards handling dungeons in a different manner and the mechanics of 4e lend themselves to it.
As D&D has evolved, so too have the dungeons that grace the adventures in various modules in supplements. In 4e, dungeons are little more than large rooms built for combat that are connected by corridors. The corridors only exist to connect the large rooms; they are no longer the setting for pit traps, random encounters or developing cartography skills. This brings me to Ameron’s article on pacing and begs the question, if the corridor’s only purpose is to connect two rooms containing combat encounters, is the corridor necessary? Why shouldn’t we skip the slow parts?
Next we look at Ameron’s skill challenge where the PCs are required to work their way deeper into a dungeon to find a lost treasure. Here Ameron uses the mechanics of the skill challenge to replace the party moving through the dungeon square by square.
Now, you might argue that removing the crawl from the dungeon takes the suspense and anticipation out of the adventure. I would respectfully argue that replacing the dungeon crawl with a skill challenge could yield just as much excitement and intrigue. The amount of prep work for the DM is about the same.
Imagine that the corridors in your dungeon have a pit trap, a dart trap and a swarm of rats that needs to be dealt with all outside of a combat encounter. A difficulty level is selected, in this instance a level 3 skill challenge might be appropriate (8 successes, before 3 failures). Then the appropriate skills are selected; Athletics, Dungeoneering, Perception and Thievery are likely candidates for this challenge.
Failed checks carry consequences beyond just a failure towards the overall challenge. Loss of healing surges, damage and conditions that can’t be ended until the PCs take an extended rest. This makes every skill check a risky proposition where the PCs wonder what the results will be. Suddenly crawling through the corridors has the PCs on the edge of their seats as they attempt to navigate the skill challenge. This is only one way of setting up the challenge; perhaps several smaller challenges would be more suitable.
Eliminating the square by square movement through dungeons won’t be for every group, but I believe that the mechanics of 4e allow for alternatives to moving through dungeons. What are your thoughts on dungeons crawls? Do you think that skill challenges can replace the physical dungeon crawl? Let us know your thoughts.
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1 2 3 Next »This is an interesting idea... "We search for the tomb of Arkanhotep"... skill challenge starts.. each failure is another room where the mummy is NOT. I like it - very doable. Dungeon maps could instead become a series of interconnected room, with the connections being nothing more than a flow chart.
On a somewhat unrelated note: you might be interested in Jonathan Drain's The Invisible Dungeon. Food for thought.
This is "mind breaking." it is a good concept, however, with just skills used to explore a dungeon, it might not feel the same. the DM would (i would think) have a little less work to do then if they brought a minuture battle mat. This would involve the players imaginations more, but for old school players (me), this idea may scare them. the pace of the dungeon would more than likely be faster and get players to the action, but i don't know.
I could see myself using skills to go through certain parts of a dungeon, but i cannot say i'd like using this method for all of it.
the article Don’t Skip the Slow Parts by Ameron could use this to speed up the pace for rooms that have little or no treasure, no monsters and no traps.
that would be one reason/way i would use this.
but guys... don't get rid of the DUNGEON.
@ Jonathan
Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to give the article a read. Skill Challenges are an area of the game that Wizards hasn't really developed in a formal way and I think that a good balance could be found by implementing them into dungeon crawls in a meaningful way.
@ Dungeon
I agree with you, it wouldn't feel the same and I don't think that the concept would work for every group. I do think the idea has merit and is worth exploring further. Don't worry though the dungeon isn't going anywhere, otherwise we'd all have to retire our PCs and where would the Dragon live?
I also remember The Bards Tale very fondly and I think that reducing a dungeon to a bunch of skill checks is going to kill your game. You see, part of the fun of dungeon crawling is *exploring* the unknown. By all means, include obstacles, traps, puzzles and skill checks as part of this; but to reduce it the experience to just one of these elements will make for a very poor experience in comparison, imho.
Now, you might argue that removing the crawl from the dungeon takes the suspense and anticipation out of the adventure. I would respectfully argue that replacing the dungeon crawl with a skill challenge could yield just as much excitement and intrigue. The amount of prep work for the DM is about the same.
I've tried this a bunch of times already and it turns it into a bored game. It felt like we were just fast forwarding to all the good parts. You might argue that we didn't do it right but we've tried it a few different ways and even my DM tried it a couple of times. It turns the game into a story teller type of game, and if that's the feel you want then that's what you're getting into.
I dropped skill checks with my new campaign. They should have designed skill challenges for crafting, professions, and entertain in my opinion.
@The Recursion King
I think the point Wimwick is trying to make is that the boring parts of going from room to room can be made more exciting by turning it into a skill challenge. I agree that eliminating the crawl entirely from a dungeon crawl would indeed hurt the game.
@kaeosdad
We're glad you found us. Thanks for your comment.
The group Wimwick and I play with has made great strides to increasing the amount of role-playing over the past few years. Our games used to be nothing more than glorified board games, just like you've describes.
I think the key is to find balance. Don't slow down the game by making the PCs play out every square of every corridor. But at the same time don't just jump from room to room. The use of battle maps and minis has minimized the number of encounters that take place in the hallways and passages. DMs shouldn't forget that encounters don't have to take place in large rooms with obstacles and terrain.
Mechanistically, I think it's fantastic that we can move through the dungeon using skill chalenges, but it misses a big part of the point, in a dungeon, that being the atmosphere. If I were exploring a dungeon, as a player, I would want to know my surroundings very well(You'd be amazed how many traps can be disabled with the aid of a wall-mounted torch). Kicking down the door without knowing what the room your in looks like is just sequential wargaming, in my opinion, which can be fun, but a good GM can make exploration as exciting as combat.
Wow, I sounded really douche-y and elitist there. I promise I didn't mean it that way. Like I always remind myself, it's just a game, having fun is the important thing.
The skill checks to go through a dungeon should more than likely be used for, say "boring parts" or rooms with nothing in it. but the only problem? what may be boring to the DM could be exciting to the players.
DM: "umm... as you pass by the cobblestone corridor, you find an old bucket tipped over. let's fast forward a bit... roll dungeoneering."
Player: "wait! a bucket?"
DM: "um, yeah a bucket. now let's move on..."
Player: "wait! the bucket must be awesomely powerful. let's examine the bucket guys."
Other party members: "yeah."
Player: "I pick up the bucket and hurl it down the corridor."
DM: "guys! let us fast forward to the next area. remember? you have to save the princess."
Player: "who cares about the princess! there's a bucket on the floor. it could be magical."
DM: *sigh*
I know this is a bad example, but hopefully you get my point. it is okay to use the skill checks to fast forward things that may be boring, but keep in mind that the players might like going through that boring area.
@Ambrose
You've raised a good point. I think it's all about doing what the group thinks will be the most fun. I'd encourage groups to try a skill challenge in place of the dungeon crawl, but if they don't like it then they should go back to what works.
And don't worry; I understood your comment for what it was. But thanks for clarifying.
@Dungeon
What's sad (and funny) is that my group would do exactly what you've described if they came across a bucket in the hallway. In fact, someone would eventually wear it as a helmet, guaranteed.
But in all seriousness, I see your point. This is where the DM really needs to decide if he thinks the PCs will enjoy a traditional dungeon crawl or if they might get more value out of trying a skill challenge as a different approach.
In the example above, a Perception check would quickly reveal that it's just an ordinary bucket. But a Dungeoneering check might reveal a clue that the subterranean race you're expecting to meet in the dungeon often sets up traps to alert them of approaching PCs. So the bucket might be part of a very simple early warning system.
Boring parts? What boring parts?
The sections that connect my dungeons are about 6 squares, or a hole in the ground/ceiling with a latter. Maybe some think that's unrealistic for a dungeon but that's how entertainment works. A TV show doesn’t show every waking moment of the character's lives (not even reality TV), it's concentrated so the audience doesn’t get bored.
When the DM builds a dungeon they have complete control over the environment, this means the DM can and should customize settings of the area in a detailed way, it's like the DM guide says don't just make a maze with a bunch of dead ends. Take advantage of this control and have some fun at least one, trap, monster, puzzle, reward, or a piece of storyline.
Don't get me wrong skill challenges are awesome and can be used very well to include a way of movement. Thing is I only use skill challenges as movement when the area of movement is very vast, repetitive, or boring in some way (remember my dungeons should not be falling into this category.) If the characters: Head out to sea, across a desert, corn field, in to a snow blizzard, up a mountain, into a dense fog, etc. This is when it's skill challenge time. This way I have the control I need to keep the game running appropriately in an environment that is too hard and or boring to build with props.
One of my formulas is to include a skill challenge that leads to the dungeon.
So in conclusion I think skill challenges are lame to have in a dungeon (because there are too many other fun opportunities to take advantage of), however in much larger environments or sections leading up to the actual dungeon Skill Challenges are perfect way to speed up time, but add cool obstacles along the way.
That’s my 2 cents.