The Next Iteration of D&D

Froth, you’ve been making negative comments on every post about D&D vNext that I’ve read. Is that really necessary?

A little premature to make that decision, considering there is no information about the rules available to the public, eh?

In addition, if WotC succeeds with their goal for the next iteration of D&D, it won’t even matter. 🙂

From what I’ve read, Gamma World is a good point of reference for what they are achieving but I could be completely off base. The idea is that you can buy the main box, and the rules for that are simple and should work as a main point of reference but very playable. (Think, classic Red Box). Then you buy later boxes to upgrade the game to what you want. So Wizards gets up to buy multiple boxes to build the game we want. That seems… interesting but I’ll wait and see.

I already have a 4e blog, and @adam fourthcore already announced they are leaving 4e behind so it isn’t all that premature

I cannot wait for the new edition to come out. I have had way too many arguments within all editions, pros, cons, idiocies. hmmmm.
Glad you got to go out to Seattle Derek. Sounded awesome.
Keep us posted.

@froth: Unless D&D vNext ends up not widely adopted (like 4E was), 90% of what are currently D&D 4E blogs will likely covert. Sersa is just going out and saying it.

I’m both excited and annoyed by this development. I’m hungry for D&D because I’m new to the game. I’ve been playing right around six months. There’s still a lot of mileage for me in 4e. However, being new and excited about the game meant that I bought a bunch of 4e material that now may be obsolete. I kind of feel wasteful having purchased this stuff.

I have been through multiple editions and play 4e because I like it the most and enjoy the Wizards 4e programs that are out. Hearing a new edition is coming, and if it arrives in 1-2 years it means 4e had a 4-5 year run as the current system, is not surprising. Even without the Legends of Lore columns, just knowing the progress machine is always running with companies, it was inevitable that something was on the horizon.

I am curious to how they plan on fixing 4e, or D&D in general as that is the vibe I am picking up from multiple vague blogs. I like 4e, but recognize it isn’t without faults, and I am always willing to try something new. My biggest concern boils down to money. I do not know if I can afford to invest in a new system. Initial DM investment in 4e was $120 retail (for the three main books), which I probably could swing, but you start piling on additional Player’s Handbooks, Monster Manuals, campaign guides and so forth, and D&D becomes an investment. Fortunately, unless something completely radical is introduced, I am sure my large collection of mini’s, which is its own small fortune, would easily work across any edition.

One positive that has already come from the announcement is my groups discussion on what works and does not work in 4e. A few good points have already been made about broken mechanics (or at least ones we do not care for) and I am hoping for an even bigger discussion on Saturday during our LFR session. The nice thing about any D&D edition is you can change whatever you do not like. It may not always work, but you can change it.

From day 1, I saw how dangerous Insider was, I also saw the necessity. It is super easy to find and download .PDFs of all the books, and many downloads equal lost sales. The way to combat this is to offer a digital service such as Insider, and digital services are the norm these days. But, for $71 a year through Insider, I no longer need to buy any books and have the benefit of always having up to date rules. With 4e, I purchased 20+ books and every box set out, I just have that book mentality, but besides the new Rules Compendium which we occasionally use for a quick rule look up, the books go largely untouched. If I were to invest in 5e and an online option were available, I honestly would probably forgo buying books, save for a rules compendium.

@ B.J. – I understand the feeling of buying a product, only to have a newer one announced shortly after, but there three things to take into consideration. First, a new edition is still a long way off, a year, probably more. Still plenty of time to get a lot of mileage out of your current books. Second, just because a new edition comes out, doesn’t mean your 4e books are all of a sudden invalid. There are huge numbers of D&Ders still playing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Yes, less (or no) new content is being published, but so much information is already out that you can easily continue having a full gaming experience. And third, 4e books become super cheap. Particularly with 3e since Ebay and the like were now established, but once 4e was announced, Ebay and Amazon were flooded with cheap copies of source material as people prepared to jump ship.

@Froth:
I’d say it’s likely that many blogs will change to being about D&D Next instead of 4e. Some will stay behind, just like some blogs stayed behind with 3e when 4e came out. It’s exciting and new, so it would be no surprise. However, if what they’re saying is true, you can use old material with D&D Next. This implies that some of the new stuff they’ll make could have backwards compatibility. I’m sure it won’t be perfect, but many 4e blogs could potentially be both 4e and Next at the same time.

I’m looking forward to this new edition. Whatever it may be.

Read about my hopes and ideas here:

http://dungeonsdonuts.blogspot.com/2012/01/hopes-and-ideas-for-d-5th-edition.html

Not weird at all. I know I want to see the next Star Trek movie, even though I do not know anything about it save the cast will be back. I know what D&D (and PnP RPG’s in general) is about and I am excited to try the next iteration.

I’m looking forward to playtesting. One of my goals for 2012 was to produce more content that was timeless, and edition agnostic, and I think this move toward a “unified DnD” will certainly encourage that effort.

Hey Derek,
Sorry that we didn’t get to meet at the summit but I was with the journalists and I am assuming you were with the other group that was the bloggers. I was excited by what I played and the information that WotC shared that day. There is no reason for anyone to stop playing 4E if that is what you enjoy. The open playtest is just beginning so the it will be quite awhile until the new edition hits the shelves. I do encourage all the fans to participate in the playtest as that may answer a lot of questions and silence the negativity about something that only a handful of us have seen. I wrote a blog on my site about what I want and do not want, selecting one item from each previous edition of D&D. http://gamingtonic.com/blog/2012/01/what-i-want-and-dont-want-in-5th-edition/ I hope everybody gives this next edition a chance before being negative.

They should make 5e compatible with 4e, that way we won’t feel scammed.

@Alphastream – when I use the term “planned obsolescence” I use it as a Marketing 101 term much in the same way that Sony upgrades their Playstation consoles every few years as technology evolves. I don’t imply that it was a conscious business decision on their part; it just happened that way. It is true that all RPGs are constantly undergoing edition changes, and this isn’t just a problem with DnD. That being said, I feel that 4e was an excellent product that could have been evolved and refined further beyond what WOTC did with the Essentials line. I would have preferred this business model or approach rather than evolving to a completely different ruleset, which invalidates my gaming library (again), some 4-5 years after a new ruleset was introduced into the market. Too soon, IMO, and I think they’re going to upset a portion of players in doing so.

I used to work in marketing for the music industry as a professional background, and I was exposed to the CD sales industry and the negative market influences of piracy, as well as evolution to digital media. My observation was that if corporations learn to adapt under changing influences, they can survive external market changes, but unfortunately they cannot persist for much longer under the old world rules, since they no longer apply. I daresay in this economic climate, disposable income for hobbies might become a bit tighter, so what’s safer for DnD? Changing your library completely? I believe that DnD will always have a niche market, but unfortunately I predict some market erosion here, not sure if WOTC will accomplish all they intend to do. Perhaps they could continue limited support for 4e and market it as “DnD Basic” and publish an Advanced Version if they saw fit? Just a thought.

You’re also right – I could hang onto my books for reference and inspiration for future editions…but the reality is that they do take up considerable physical space, and weigh a ton. So likely in with the new, and out with the old, right? I would consider keeping the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun guides primarily since these have story content usable in any edition. In this digital age, I would prefer to archive digital copies for posterity, unfortunately this was another product feature in announced in 2007 which WOTC had to reneg on, and I cannot condone piracy on moral grounds, so we have no real option here.

The fact still remains that 4e was originally advertised and touted as an edition which would undergo refinement and evolution, but the ruleset would essentially remain the same. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbqMoEwDqc and slide over to 3:47 and ask yourself truthfully if WOTC lived up the expectation they originally marketed in 2007?

I do wish that WOTC invested more into the digital aspect of 4e DnD, since this would have set it up for a reliable source of continuous income, if done correctly. They have door a mediocre job at implementing their electronic gaming platforms, and IMO even more poorly at marketing it. DDi didn’t have half the meat they originally promised. There is huge potential for crossover in the video gaming market nowadays for DnD, and it seems the bulk of WOTC marketing funds is still being poured into convention play and retailer support, which is a safe bet for them. Granted, there is some risk here in that crossover, but I think that since this is essentially the fantasy line that was a springboard for a ton of video games, they need to take some calculated risk to see more payoff.

Just my two cents, again…I respect your opinion, as well as all the support you’ve provided to WOTC through your work. Cheers…DB

Thanks, Darth Bingo! I have enjoyed your posts in the past as well!

It’s a tough call. We all lack proper info and probably the info at WotC is only but so good. For example, my local gaming store has seen an absolute boom (hiring more staff, expanding, etc.) during these tough years. There is research that shows some products (including entertainment) are inversely elastic when having less income. But, I doubt anyone knows for sure with RPGs and we all know another store that closed during the same time. Still, I think if you look at most gamers saying “I don’t have the money for this D&D book”, they do buy something else equally geeky (such as a video game). That means you need to tinker with the appeal if your products aren’t hitting target numbers. Wizards has done enough with 4E and Essentials to make it very likely that the numbers aren’t good enough and that D&D Next is a better financial move, in addition to being sound creatively.

Wizards being the biggest company is good and bad. Good because they can try outrageous projects like DDI and Gleemax (shudder), bad because they then need to make up the investment and hit high sales figures. I am confident any other RPG would love to have the 2011 sales that Wizards probably internally considers to be below what they want (this is just my guess, no insider knowledge).

The timing for a new edition is tough. 4E is clearly at its best, but you also don’t want to start creating a new edition when an edition is at its worst. If in retrospect we see that they started when 4E was at a peak, and then release D&D Next when 4E interest is waning, isn’t that perfect? With 3E, many players were absolutely sick and tired of 3E by the time 4E came out… I would argue they should have started earlier. One nice bit is that this is a playtest period, and perhaps can be lengthened or shortened based on the appeal of D&D Next vs. fervent love for 4E. But, to be honest, I’m seeing far more interest in Next than in holding onto 4E (other than Froth 😉

My main point is that the industry is tough on everyone, there is no history of “do this and succeed”, and everyone is trying and in some way failing. Wizards gets the bulls-eye, but they don’t really deserve it. They have higher standards and we then hold them to even higher standards, but push aside those revenue standards and they are a bunch of passionate gamers doing the best they can. I do believe in being critical, but also reasonable given the history of the game. There will be a 6E, and when it comes the timing will feel just right to some and terrible to others. Given that, I think this has been handled pretty well.

LordOcampo, that’s always true, and your thoughts are very valid. For every edition. I’m sure if we had an internet in ’75 we would have heard the same thing back then, because someone had just bought the white box and now their investment was ruined. But, you don’t have to throw anything away. D&D Next may end up modular enough that you can use your 4E in great ways. Or, it may have a place alongside 4E, the way many of us play L5R and Eclipse Phase or Pathfinder along with D&D. Gardmore and Neverwinter won’t stop being great products. I have yet to do anything for Ashes of Athas or my own 4E Dark Sun campaign that didn’t involve several trips to my shelves to pour through the awesome AD&D Dark Sun books. The information can be valuable way beyond that initial edition. And, hey, you may just not like D&D Next, in which case you will be all the smarter for holding on to your old material. But I honestly think Gardmore will be a prized possession when we all are playing 8E.

@Carbonadam, From the early results, it doesn’t look like you can use old material without some sort of conversion. For one thing, the new game will either have negative or positive AC. I don’t think conversion will be very difficult. You’ll need to reality check everything, but that’s needed with all conversions.