Avenger – Worst Striker Ever

Very interesting analysis. One of my players just last night decided he would be playing a Shadar-Kai Avenger, and his decision was based a lot more on the awesome role-playing potential of the class, rather than the mechanics, most of which he is pretty ignorant of, as far as the bigger picture is concerned. Any suggestions on how to beef him up to make him more on par with other strikers? I think extra damage vs the Oath of Enmity target might be acceptable, and probably wouldn’t break the game.

I can see why you feel distasteful about the Avenger after what you’ve described. I’ve DM’d for a few avengers and I think both seemed relatively satisfied with the class. But then, I’m a relatively indulgent DM and I certainly didn’t go out of my way to negate their bread and butter class ability. With me DMing, I think playing an avenger was more about getting the right positioning, similar to how the rogue needs to work at getting combat advantage.

Avengers tend to acquire enough movement powers and have a good enough set of defenses that they can effectively move around the field. I remember one of the avengers I played with focused specifically on teleportation powers and didn’t particularly have a problem getting into position to get his two rolls.

It’s not a class for people who like to see huge damage numbers. And it’s easier to gimp its special abilities than other classes. And come to think of it, I realize that I dislike Avengers’ mechanics compared to all the other striker classes, but it stacks up as balanced from my perspective.

and don’t forget Iron Armbands of Power.

Honestly I find the Avenger a bit underwhelming. Doubt the crit chance and a 25% bonus chance to hit doesn’t help when the DM is actively screwing with your one class feature. If the DM is nice and lets you get away with your class feature more then 50% of the time, then it’s awesome. But I tend to find that accuracy isn’t always a problem for players, after a fact, they get like 80% chance to hit anyways.

Over all, it’s a very DM dependent class and bad DM’s tend to love to screw with class features they have some control over. When you’re a Warlock and you can curse anything you want and then will ALWAYS do damage to that target, it’s hard for the DM to say, no. When you have restrictions on your power that the Dm can screw with, well. Guess what.

Sentack

you have to build a paragon multiclass ranger/eternal seeker and not use any avenger powers but the oath but you can make an avenger worth playing

Wrong on so many levels it’s tradgic.

Their accuracy is their extra damage. I’ve played 3-4 encounter modules where I didn’t miss a single time, and scored critical hits 3-5 times (vicious fullblade FTW), so their damage output is definitely up there. Also, look to take Painful Oath at paragon to get another damage boost.

Your problem isn’t a bad class, it’s a*****e DMs. No enemy short of a brilliant tactician who’s had a chance to observe the party should be able to figure out how to intentionally short circuit a mechanical benefit.

The one aspect that many people don’t touch on regarding the Avenger is their ability to dabble in the leader role. As a divne character, it is one of the only striker classes that can back up the party’s healer because it can easily dish out healing surges via its divine channeling powers and feat selections. I’ve created a few low-level Avenger builds that can use multiple healing surge powers as MINOR actions as well, enabling him/her to effectively strike and heal in the same round. This also gives this particular striker a degree of durability than most other strikers miss out on. I agree that the Avenger is lackluster as far as pure burst damage, but the potential flexability of a divine striker is a potent addition to most parties.

Another consideration is Essentials. In my experience, my not particularly optimized second level human thief can get CA on just about every attack, and when he does he’s got a total to hit of +12, usually 13 because charges become easier to set up. Add +3 for Backstab and +4 for Heroic Effort (both once an encounter), and I’ve only ever missed when I rolled a 1 (and then only because it was an auto-miss). I haven’t taken a serious crack at a hexblade or a scout, but in my observation they dish out some serious damage at about the same rate.

It would appear to me, then, that the main source of an Avenger’s increased expected damage output, the reroll leading to increased accuracy, would be at least partially rendered obsolete by essentials classes that have crazy accuracy AND increased damage.

Just some personal observations about the mechanics. On another note, I really really like the flavor of the Avenger class. Just lots of good tropes built right into it.

Having GM’d for several Avengers over the past couple of years, the observations I have are twofold. The ongoing joke for three parties right now, in which none of the players know each other, it “Avengers never miss.” It’s a mild exaggeration, yes, but at the table it can certainly feel like the truth, to the point that I have had players in two groups ask me if the Avenger is OVER-powered. Avengers, because of the ability to roll two dice, are *CONSISTENT*. Math may say that it’s only a +25% chance to hit, but at the table in my experience it seems like it’s an event everybody notices when the Avenger misses his target. If a striker from a different class misses with an at-will, he loses [W]+PAB damage and likely his bonus damage as well. An avenger will miss significantly less often, meaning his damage output doesn’t have those dead spots very often, meaning that in the long run (over the course of an entire adventure, or campaign, I mean here) the Avenger’s output is likely going to be on par if not slightly more than another striker (Essentials Thief notwithstanding– that class is close to broken in my opinion)

As for some of your other points, I think you’re focusing too much on pure damage output and not seeing the other benefits of the class as others have already stated. Avenger powers almost always have some kind of rider effect–which also almost always happens because they hit so often– so they are not solely dependent on damage dealt to contribute to the party.

Avengers can be very, VERY hard to hit. With the right feats and armor choices, the Avenger can be almost as consistently difficult to deal damage TO as he deals damage himself. Slippery buggers, they are.

Also, I absolutely *ADORE* the roleplaying potential of the Avenger. Others have expressed this above, but I wanted to reiterate it. The cool stuff a GM can do with a player who really wants to play an Avenger in his game are rather boundless.

And lastly, as others in the comments have said, I think you’re also dealing with a DM who might realize the potential the Avenger has and is deliberately stifling that character. Speaking as a GM who has looked on in mild frustration as the Avenger hits the target seemingly *Every Single Time*, it can feel kinda ridiculous at the table that one character never misses. If you have a GM who reacts to the character by deliberately shutting down character abilities, that’s a problem with the GM and not a reason to berate the class itself.

I have GM’ed an Avenger for more than a year now, run by my daughter. To reiterate what other folks have written:

1. He (the character is male) almost never misses. This really does mean a lot. But some people like the big damage number, though.
2. He has lots of good movement powers, and uses them to advantage to enable his Oath Powers.
3. He has taken some feats and armor that give him the highest AC in the party, tough to pin down, tough to hit, though fewer hit points and surges than the defenders.
4. He has an ability where damage that he takes adds to damage that he deals. He will turn this power on, then offer opportunity attacks to the opponents, while getting in position to his Oath target. As a GM, I will make a roll based on the intelligence and tactical acumen of the targets to figure out whether they will make the opportunity attacks or not, but the roll is biased toward taking a swing. What grunt wouldn’t?

So, DMing matters. But one of the primary rules of DMing is to let the players use their powers. They rolled that character so that they could use the powers.

That doesn’t mean they always get to use their powers. Maybe sometimes they will fight someone who knows what an Avenger is, and can shut them down. That will make the players mad at them, not me.

Of course, this also makes the party count on each other. One of the true joys is that now they are figuring out each other’s abilities and trying to set each other up. That’s fantastic, in my book.

Wow, I have to strongly disagree, but my perspective may be based on the levels we’re looking at. In my high-level game, there’s a 19th-level Elf Pursuit Avenger who is just a nightmare on the field. I have lots of characters who are very effective, but he’s just insane… Painful Oath, Jagged Fullblade, etc. He crits every fourth round or so – and sometimes more often. When he crits, he attacks again. He doesn’t get nerfed by getting ganged-up-upon because he just steals the enemy and teleports away with him. His AC is higher than most of the defenders in the party.

He’s a fairly unstoppable force at this point. I expect my experiences might be different in a Heroic-tier game, but at mid-Paragon and higher… yowch.

Sometimes I feel these classes are really lacking the same punch as others, but you are right that it really is how you play your character and how you feel about it in the long run.

4 out of the past 5 times I’ve run with my avenger the dm has run my OoE target out of combat effectively neutering my character for the rest of the encounter since I cant recast OoE again until my current target dies. Is there a rule around this other than wasting a utility on this? Its really annoying and is starting to make me want to roll a new class.

Hmmm as much as I usually agree with your assessment of things, I have to say I think your stance is…. (searching for a pc word) idiotic. With a reasonable DM, one that allows you to use your OoE when realistic, its an incredicble class, specially as you add feats like Avenging Resolution. If you decide to gain proficiency with the mordenkrad your damage out put will be high enough. Also is you decide to play a race with a teleportation skill, or take utilities that allow you to shift a bunch, I think that way outweighs the warlocks extra d6…. ooooh a whole d6, a d6 you can only use when you hit, which doesnt the avenger kinda specialize in that… great work, just way wrong this time

@K f, I’ve never played an Avenger, never even looked at one before this article. I assume your talking about Avenging Resolution since its the only feat I mentioned in my previous post, besides the proficiency with the mordenkrad. Warlocks curse gives an extra 3.5 points of damage, hunters quarry does the same, maybe I exaggerated Ameron’s folly, but what Im saying is the ability to hit more often leaves you to focus on getting weapons to do more damage. IF your playing an Avenger dont expect to run up in the middle of combat and then complain about how you cant get one on one with an enemy to use your OoE. Why not wait for your defender to do what he does, then pick out a target, wait till your farely confident you’ll be able to use your OoE before unleashing it on the nearest baddy and then being dissappointed. After all nothing says you have to use your OoE the very first round of every combat. It takes work for the rogue to get combat advantage right? I think you have a better case to make for the warlock being the worst striker, the warlocks curse is nice, if you can hit anything… The Avenger may not be a rogue, but its not as bad as Ameron made it sound.

@Ameron, where you at bro? Change your mind yet?

@Ameron, not to be to hard on ya, but saying “Avengers are the worst striker at low levels in my experience” is kinda unfair. I mean rich bankers are scum in my experience ( the only banker I know of is Bernie madoff). How can any of us readers know your experiences as a gamer with rangers, warlocks and sorcerers unless youinclude that in your blog. I think the only fair way to compare them is on paper. AC att. rolls. damage, and such.
If I say “In my experience archer rangers are the worst characters ever.” But dont clue you into the fact that our second encounter teleported us to a desert planet with little plant life and no material to make arrows from, much less buy them; then that kinda makes my earlier statement about archer rangers invalid to anything except my experiences with that ranger on that planet in that campaign. See where I am going. I think if your going to compare, you have to do so in somewhat of a vaccuum, and at different levels. Invokers suck at first level, Invokers are just plain cheater at epic tier.
Afterall how good is a paladin with plate if your campaign is infested with rust monsters.
To sum up. I like your blog, and i love the discussions.
But… This post I think was pretty irrellevant when trying to decide where the Avenger fits in on the list of Strikers.

So….something for you guys to consider, the 25% to hit thing isnt that amazing.

Take a thief, who can use any light blade (so a rapier cause of gritty sergeant). He has a d8 weapon.

Weapon Talent nets him +1 to hit, nimble blade adds another +1 to hit (which is a joke as they can sustain CA on their own) and thieves can also repeat/charge a target while maintaining CA (for another +1, and they shift away before the combat to avoid AOOS).

So a thief has +3 to hit over your standard Avenger, the avenger has a reroll. That difference there is that the avenger has 2 chances to crit (which ends up being 7.5%) and 10% more accurate.

The thief is also always having CA on his own, where the Avenger has to somehow gain it otherwise, which is hard given their various mechanics. On average the Thief is gonna have that +2 form CA far more often, but lets not include this in yet.

The thief can, after he rolls, use backstab (ala elven accuracy) to add +3 to his attack rolls, turning misses into hits generally up to a few times per encounter.

The thief is adding 2d8 (backstaber, dont leave home without it) once a turn, and adding another +2 damage at low heroic levels (which increases). The iron armbands that apply to MBA’s are dirt cheap as well, and accesible far earlier than what an avenger can use.

So… 3d8 (rapier/backstab) + 1(light blade expertise) + 2 (thief auto damage bonus) + 2 (iron armbands at low levels) vs the best you get out of a Avenger is gonna be 2d6 or 1d10 or so damage (without sacrificing accuracy for a d12 weapon).

The thief is way ahead, can pull of his trick far more often and is generally immune to DM screwary since they can get their own CA.

Here’s a quick summary of the extra damamge striekrs can deal.

Rogue: +2d6 sneak dice (combat advantage required)
Ranger: +1d6 hunter’s quarry
Assassin: +1d6 assassin’s shroud
Warlock: +1d6 warlock’s curse
Monk: 2+Str or 3+Wis Flurry of Blows
Sorcerer: +second ability modifier
Barbarian: +1d6 or +1d8 from at-will power
Avenger: no additional damage

-I think this summary on the avenger is completely wrong… the additional damage of the avenger depends on the type of avenger you’re going to play… and using the channel divinity class feature of the avenger makes it even more reliable as a striker… you can take the channel divinity feat from forgotten realms “righteous rage of tempus” a hit gives you an automatic critical, and with the oath of enmity feature makes your accuracy even more reliable than other strikers… you roll 2D20’s and choose the better result if you want…

-you’re not as good as an analyzer you think you are… tsk!

It seems to me that, on this thread, whether folks are pro-Avenger or anti-Avenger as a class build, both sides seem to pinpoint the crux of their judgment on how well or poorly Oath of Enmity works; before then considering the merits of other feats, powers, traits, etc. That’s key. I think if the Oath of Enmity fails to work either because the DMing is problematic or because the player can’t seem to get the right circumstances together at-table to wield the power, that’s not enough to base-judge the class as intended by the devs. Similarly, if the power works well and frequently because the DM does nothing to mix it up and mitigate from time to time or pursuant to a particularly crafty and argumentative player, then also such PsOV might not constitute fair critique of the class.

My less than valuable two cents is that I am playing a 4E elf ranger who just hit level 8. Feat time! I’ve never played an avenger before, but when weighing the Disciple of Divine Wrath multiclass feat that allows a PC of a different class to use the Avenger’s Oath of Enmity, side by side with native class feats, it has become very hard not to choose the former. Keep in mind when I say this that the multiclass feat limits the use of that Oath to BOTH “once per encounter” AND then lasting only a duration of “until the end of your next turn.” There’s some minor debate about whether the “regain” function of the power is allowable or not through the feat. But rest assured, my DM quite fairly ruled against the regain and STILL it is hard for me to ignore the multiclass feat option when choosing.

In essence, this means that if I took the multiclass feat, at best, with positioning and action point involved, I could ONLY gain the double roll benefit against just one target for just three attacks (two turns plus an action pointed standard). Mind you, I’d use dual wielding melee attacks which would then be six double rolls in those same turns. This all by itself, with no regain, no extra targets, no way to use it again in the encounter, no gain from said feat also granting the use of an implement because ranger powers do not use the “implement” key word, and no realistic avenger paragon paths for a ranger to select later, that is STILL a valuable enough option for strong multiclass consideration at level 8. Double rolls on double weps for just three attacks (only when possible) seems somehow more valuable to the encounter than, by contrast, the repeating plus 1s for Two Weapon Fighting or the one-time plus 2 for Manticore’s Fury.

I submit that while not having played an avenger myself makes my judgment of the class similarly unfair; if the rest of the people posting here have hit upon the Oath of Enmity sweet spot in the class as key to its usefulness, then there must exist superbly viable avenger class builds when that same sweet spot remains so attractive across classes, even with severe multiclassing limitations to its use. I think as a judgment of the class itself, those who are keen on avenger mechanics as they develop can be vindicated by this statement.

That said, I think it also necessary to point out that Mr. Myers, while opining that the class might be the weakest in the edition, did not seem to be ostensibly judging the avenger class as he was comparing it to other striker classes. If, indeed, one buys into the premise that the main commonality of all striker classes is the extra damage, then one cannot assert that an avenger with low but certain damage over time exactly fits this bill. Besides, of all the classes, one has to be the weakest. Perhaps the class itself has a largely viable mechanic either alone or in combination with other party members while it simultaneously remains outside of the shared aspect of other striker types and therefore outside of what we’d expect from a class identified as a striker. While the avenger possibilities would not seem to fit any of the other class types, WoC may have inadvertently laid the foundation for a stand-alone type to build upon in 5E. What draws us more to a PC than uniqueness?

I’ve been playing a Longtooth Shifter Avenger of Bahamut for about a year and a half-long weekly campaign so far, and I’ve enjoyed it. You’re right that it’s not much of a striker class, although I do pretty decent damage with the powers I’ve picked, and my party enjoys the Divine Guidance power that lets them use my Oath of Enmity bonus if they’re within ten squares of me.

Where it’s really excelled, though, is taking the beatings that my DM likes to give my character. He’s got a large amount more HP than the only other character of the same level in my party, and is sort of a tank. I’ve got an ability that gives me regen 5 until the end of the encounter, an at-will that gives me my Wisdom mod (+6 right now, I think) in temporary HP when I use it, and the longtooth shifter’s regen 4 (now that I’m level 11+) while bloodied. Combine all that with the various “force you to move”, “keep you from willingly moving”, and “in x circumstance, you get y extra damage” stuff I’ve put in to my character, and he’s a pretty damn powerful build.

That said, I’m looking forward to when/if he dies permanently (or the campaign ends) and I get to play the Halfling Fighter that I’ve got as a backup.

While this is kind of true for many avengers, here is a certain avenger build that starting at level 11 really takes off and can become OP. a half elf avenger with equally high STR and WIS using a double axe and having twin strike as an at-will (b/c of versatile mastery i think) gets 4 rolls for attack. if you take ardent champion PP and crit focusing powers and items as well as multi attack powers (like the high level barbarian one that lets you attack 4 or 5 times) means you will get a really ridiculous amount of crits, thereby putting his DPR at least as high (if not higher) than other strikers.